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Please list ONE tangible thing about Manziel that makes you think he's better than Bridgewater. Just one. I don't even care what it is because I don't know shit about Manziel's game, really.
Everything? The only advantage Bridgewater may have is standing in the pocket.
Omg. No, wrong on so many levels.
For starters, Bridgewater has a better arm. It's stronger and it's more accurate. He drops a ball into the bucket from 40 yards out like he's throwing a screen pass. His throwing motion is fluid and it's structured that it won't be hard for him to shorten it. He has an arm that allows him to gun it when he can't even step into his throw. Manziel, with all his weight behind it, might not throw as hard as Teddy throwing all-arm. He's not a runner, so you are right in saying he has an advantage in the pocket, but you act like that's just a small detail. NFL teams throw the vast majority of their passes from inside the pocket. So, if Teddy is WAY better in the pocket, that means he's WAY better for the NFL offense.
Everything? The only advantage Bridgewater may have is standing in the pocket.
Omg. No, wrong on so many levels.
For starters, Bridgewater has a better arm. It's stronger and it's more accurate. He drops a ball into the bucket from 40 yards out like he's throwing a screen pass. His throwing motion is fluid and it's structured that it won't be hard for him to shorten it. He has an arm that allows him to gun it when he can't even step into his throw. Manziel, with all his weight behind it, might not throw as hard as Teddy throwing all-arm. He's not a runner, so you are right in saying he has an advantage in the pocket, but you act like that's just a small detail. NFL teams throw the vast majority of their passes from inside the pocket. So, if Teddy is WAY better in the pocket, that means he's WAY better for the NFL offense.
There are a number of other factors that go into it as well, but Bridgewater ran a 4.6 40 going into college (Manziel ran a 4.53), so Bridgewater is not incapable of running if need be.
For starters, Bridgewater has a better arm. It's stronger and it's more accurate. He drops a ball into the bucket from 40 yards out like he's throwing a screen pass. His throwing motion is fluid and it's structured that it won't be hard for him to shorten it. He has an arm that allows him to gun it when he can't even step into his throw. Manziel, with all his weight behind it, might not throw as hard as Teddy throwing all-arm. He's not a runner, so you are right in saying he has an advantage in the pocket, but you act like that's just a small detail. NFL teams throw the vast majority of their passes from inside the pocket. So, if Teddy is WAY better in the pocket, that means he's WAY better for the NFL offense.
There are a number of other factors that go into it as well, but Bridgewater ran a 4.6 40 going into college (Manziel ran a 4.53), so Bridgewater is not incapable of running if need be.
Right, Teddy is an athletic pocket passer, Manziel is a scrambler. The NFL is moving towards athletic pocket passers because of the extra dimension/threat they pose, not scramblers.
Russell Wilson - athletic pocket passer Tim Tebow - scrambler Cam Newton - athletic pocket passer Kaepernick - scrambler
There are stark differences in the games of the two types of players, and NFL teams would prefer the athletic pocket passer 9 times out of 10. And Manziel looks like a little kid next to Kaep, who is like a fucking horse out there.
Size + Style = No thank you.
His technical flaws could be overcome in a year or two, if he focused on them, but he's not getting bigger and I can't see him changing the way he plays.
Post by bansheebeat on Feb 6, 2014 11:05:57 GMT -5
I just want Bridgewater to go to the Texans. I can't imagine them taking Manziel over him, but I could see Clowney going first which would bump Teddy down to the 3 or 4 spot I think.
And for what it's worth I didn't really appreciate Bridgewater's athleticism until I got to see a game in person. That dude can really move. But I think that's probably true of most players.
You're just too young to grasp how stylin' I really was. All the boys wanted to do me when I was 5. Actually the girls did too. My haircut was confusing.
You're just too young to grasp how stylin' I really was. All the boys wanted to do me when I was 5. Actually the girls did too. My haircut was confusing.
Post by mrmonotone on Feb 10, 2014 10:15:32 GMT -5
Bruce Arians and the Cardinals could be a contender. If your gonna take a dope smoker nobody wanted last year then Mr. Sam won't be a problem this year.
It just fits Pete Carroll's MO. Talented defensive player who will wind up dropping in the draft because of some bullshit? Check. A close-knit team that doesn't give a shit about who you are? Check. Open minded city? Check. Just won the Superbowl, and therefore has plenty of goodwill where nobody will complain about anything they do? Check. I look forward to them landing a 3rd round talent in the 5th round.
The GM's the media is anonymously interviewing make it seem like half the teams are in the "we don't give a shit if you're gay, just be good at your job and be a good teammate" camp and half are "THE NFL ISN'T READY TO START SAYING 'FAGGOT' YET!" camp. I can see a team taking him in the 3rd round as a "fuck you" to those ignorant teams.
It just fits Pete Carroll's MO. Talented defensive player who will wind up dropping in the draft because of some bullshit? Check. A close-knit team that doesn't give a shit about who you are? Check. Open minded city? Check. Just won the Superbowl, and therefore has plenty of goodwill where nobody will complain about anything they do? Check. I look forward to them landing a 3rd round talent in the 5th round.
The GM's the media is anonymously interviewing make it seem like half the teams are in the "we don't give a shit if you're gay, just be good at your job and be a good teammate" camp and half are "THE NFL ISN'T READY TO START SAYING 'FAGGOT' YET!" camp. I can see a team taking him in the 3rd round as a "fuck you" to those ignorant teams.
With the combine just two weeks away, there is no question the media will be reporting on every one of his drills, times, presses, etc. While I dont see a chance that anybody reaches for him early just to say F you to the ignorant teams, you could see his general stock move more than the average player would because of the increased scrutiny, especially if he doesnt perform well.
You cant forget it is still a business first. If half the teams are just going to stay away to avoid this type of media attention, it lends far more support to the other half hoping to get him as a steal a round later or two than he will be slotted come draft day. Of those remaining half, there will be a percentage of those that dont have the team need to draft anyone at his playing position until day three or at all. Of the remaining after that, some will have drafted at that position in the first or second round to address the team need and wont draft another in the third round again. That doesnt mean he will fall in the draft for sure, I just think it highly unlikely anyone uses the draft pick to make a statement and pick him earlier than they need to.
The GM's the media is anonymously interviewing make it seem like half the teams are in the "we don't give a shit if you're gay, just be good at your job and be a good teammate" camp and half are "THE NFL ISN'T READY TO START SAYING 'FAGGOT' YET!" camp. I can see a team taking him in the 3rd round as a "fuck you" to those ignorant teams.
With the combine just two weeks away, there is no question the media will be reporting on every one of his drills, times, presses, etc. While I dont see a chance that anybody reaches for him early just to say F you to the ignorant teams, you could see his general stock move more than the average player would because of the increased scrutiny, especially if he doesnt perform well.
You cant forget it is still a business first. If half the teams are just going to stay away to avoid this type of media attention, it lends far more support to the other half hoping to get him as a steal a round later or two than he will be slotted come draft day. Of those remaining half, there will be a percentage of those that dont have the team need to draft anyone at his playing position until day three or at all. Of the remaining after that, some will have drafted at that position in the first or second round to address the team need and wont draft another in the third round again. That doesnt mean he will fall in the draft for sure, I just think it highly unlikely anyone uses the draft pick to make a statement and pick him earlier than they need to.
To clarify, the team taking him in the 3rd round in that hypothetical would be doing so because they feel he's worth that pick, the message-sending would just by a by-product of them not holding it against the young man.
Post by muppetstakethefarm on Feb 10, 2014 11:07:35 GMT -5
Reading back the last page I am concerned for the fact that Sang and I agree about Manziel. I should make it clear none of what I said about Manziel before should be construed as a negative to Teddy Bridgewater. I am usually the most analytical in my sports thinking and go with clear, easy to digest facts over a gut feeling. In todays age though, you can find facts to fit your opinion if you look hard enough(example is that Kiper has had Manziel going #1 for weeks now but still has Bridgewater higher on his big board). I will admit the final difference to me between the two is my gut feeling about Manziel's ability to improvise and his anticipation of seeing the play unfolding as he is back there. The other issues are not as far apart as people make them seem. Manziel has shown he is very efficient when he stayed in the pocket, he just didnt stay in the pocket as much as he will need to in the NFL. I think that is very coachable, and can be changed. He is still just 21. Its not like he is Cutler who by now, like him or hate him you know what you have. Rob Ford you may be right that he wont change, I just cant accept that at this point.
Haha, you felt it necessary to clarify that while you agree with Sang's final point, you aren't arriving to it via the same "logic."
I like you.
I could very well be wrong about the lil' guy, but the NFL is a different animal and sometimes the best college players simply aren't bred for it. I'm holding form on my "Manziel is Vick 2.0" stance. Oh, and Tajh Boyd is going to become a fullback (eat THAT, Sang).
Post by muppetstakethefarm on Feb 10, 2014 12:26:47 GMT -5
Im not naive to think Johnny F can't end up that way. I'd add that if he came into the league 10 years ago, it would be even more difficult for him to succeed. The rule changes that have kept QB's upright and less vulnerable certainly help him more than they do a typical pocket passer from the standpoint of staying healthy.
To add a different fuel to the same fire... how bad would it be for Manziel if he were Vick 2.0? On the field, its probably a compliment to many QBs coming up now but I believe your Vick 2.0 reference from prior posts is an inability to stay healthy, no? Stats and performance aside, his prime years of 2004-2006 he played 15,15 and 16 games before being out of the league when he would have been 27,28 and 29 still. We never will know if he would have maintained that or not. The Vick that cant stay healthy now has been over 30 for the last three seasons. Regardless of what Bridgewater does, If Manziel became Vick 2.0, he would be a three time pro bowl QB with a $100 million+ contract by the end of his rookie deal.
Post by muppetstakethefarm on Feb 10, 2014 12:33:45 GMT -5
I dont mean this as a knock on Taj Boyd but unless he is flat out awful, he should always find a home in the NFL. Guys like Seneca Wallace, Shaun Hill, Jason Campbell and Tyrod Taylor for example can be just as bad or good as other backups but because they have had a different element with mobility, so they have stuck around. They are great to have on the roster as a change of pace for practicing on offense and giving different looks to your own defense. Point is that even if he is not the #1 guy somewhere, because his game is not the prototypical pocket passer type, he can be of value within your roster for both sides of the ball and still never see the field expect when they roll out that wildcat package. LOL. Ok that last part was a knock on both Boyd and the wildcat.
Im not naive to thing Johnny F can't end up that way. I'd add that if he came into the league 10 years ago, it would be even more difficult for him to succeed. The rule changes that have kept QB's upright and less vulnerable certainly help him more than they do a typical pocket passer from the standpoint of staying healthy.
To add a different fuel to the same fire... how bad would it be for Manziel if he were Vick 2.0? On the field, its probably a compliment to many QBs coming up now but I believe your Vick 2.0 reference from prior posts is an inability to stay healthy, no? Stats and performance aside, his prime years of 2004-2006 he played 15,15 and 16 games before being out of the league when he would have been 27,28 and 29 still. We never will know if he would have maintained that or not. The Vick that cant stay healthy now has been over 30 for the last three seasons. Regardless of what Bridgewater does, If Manziel became Vick 2.0, he would be a three time pro bowl QB with a $100 million+ contract by the end of his rookie deal.
But see, Vick is a cautionary tale to me. Not the dog-fighting and the jail part (that's obvious), but I mean as a player. Remember, he was drafted with a "changing the NFL" stigma, he was an uber-hyper, uber-talented, undersized QB who liked to run it as much as pass it. He was very polarizing, much like Manziel, only for a different reason.
Vick 2.0 is going to wow the shit out of you some weeks. Other weeks he will make you want to throw your television out a 16 story window. Other weeks he'll put a team on his back, kick it into 6th gear and do some shit that leaves people speechless. But imo his style + size will result in him getting hurt. And he'll get hurt more and more as the hits pile up on his little frame.
Keep in mind, Vick didn't play a full, 16-game season until his fifth year as a starter (6th total), which happened to be the last one before he went to jail. He got that $100 million deal off of potential and a big playoff win in Green Bay. That could certainly happen with JOHNNY FOOTBAW!!, but I would really hesitate to do that if he was on my team, which he wouldn't be because I would never draft him.
Seneca Wallace should be arrested for robbery with all the money he has stolen in his career
Seneca Wallace has been about as good of a career-backup as you could possibly hope for. What kind of comment is this?
Edit: Also, did this guy punch your sister in the stomach or something? Who actually has enough time on their hands to hate Seneca Wallace of all people?
I don't hate Seneca. I'm sure he's a fine person. I just question his ability as a starter or even a backup
Career rating of 80, Completion a hair under 60%, mobile threat. Either you vastly overrate how good a backup QB should be, or you underrate how solid of a player Wallace was.
I dont mean this as a knock on Taj Boyd but unless he is flat out awful, he should always find a home in the NFL. Guys like Seneca Wallace, Shaun Hill, Jason Campbell and Tyrod Taylor for example can be just as bad or good as other backups but because they have had a different element with mobility, so they have stuck around. They are great to have on the roster as a change of pace for practicing on offense and giving different looks to your own defense. Point is that even if he is not the #1 guy somewhere, because his game is not the prototypical pocket passer type, he can be of value within your roster for both sides of the ball and still never see the field expect when they roll out that wildcat package. LOL. Ok that last part was a knock on both Boyd and the wildcat.
This makes me think you have never watched him play(even though I know that you have, so you should know better). He's definitely more of a passer than a runner. If he makes it it will be as a normal qb. He doesn't fit that stereotype.
Post by muppetstakethefarm on Feb 10, 2014 12:52:14 GMT -5
I will totally agree with you about the some weeks he will wow you, some he will make you want to throw your TV out. My comment was about staying healthy and I think the "one full 16 game season" thing is not a fair arguement. For one, any team right now would take thier QB playing 14 of 16 games. Its just a reality. So I cant knock a guy at any position in the NFL, especially QB for ONLY playing 15 twice. In Vicks case though, the game he missed in 2004 was because they already clinched the division. 2004-2006 was a total of one game missed from injury. Nothing wrong with that.
I have no idea why I appear to be defending Michael Vick. I didnt like him the first time around specifically because of the inconsistency and run first mentality. I guess I am using his perceived lack of durability during those prime years of his career to further my arguement on Johnny who I know is at least a throw first, run 2nd guy with far more football instincts now than Vick ever had. We probably just need to move on until Sang gives us something to talk about.
I dont mean this as a knock on Taj Boyd but unless he is flat out awful, he should always find a home in the NFL. Guys like Seneca Wallace, Shaun Hill, Jason Campbell and Tyrod Taylor for example can be just as bad or good as other backups but because they have had a different element with mobility, so they have stuck around. They are great to have on the roster as a change of pace for practicing on offense and giving different looks to your own defense. Point is that even if he is not the #1 guy somewhere, because his game is not the prototypical pocket passer type, he can be of value within your roster for both sides of the ball and still never see the field expect when they roll out that wildcat package. LOL. Ok that last part was a knock on both Boyd and the wildcat.
This makes me think you have never watched him play(even though I know that you have, so you should know better). He's definitely more of a passer than a runner. If he makes it it will be as a normal qb. He doesn't fit that stereotype.
I didnt say he is more of a runner than a passer. I said he is not the prototypical pocket passer type. That is not an insult or a knock on him. There are many starting QBs let alone backups who are not prototypical pocket passers. My point was even if he fails trying to be a "normal qb" (your words), he will find a home because he has the element of mobility.
I will totally agree with you about the some weeks he will wow you, some he will make you want to throw your TV out. My comment was about staying healthy and I think the "one full 16 game season" thing is not a fair arguement. For one, any team right now would take thier QB playing 14 of 16 games. Its just a reality. So I cant knock a guy at any position in the NFL, especially QB for ONLY playing 15 twice. In Vicks case though, the game he missed in 2004 was because they already clinched the division. 2004-2006 was a total of one game missed from injury. Nothing wrong with that.
I have no idea why I appear to be defending Michael Vick. I didnt like him the first time around specifically because of the inconsistency and run first mentality. I guess I am using his perceived lack of durability during those prime years of his career to further my arguement on Johnny who I know is at least a throw first, run 2nd guy with far more football instincts now than Vick ever had. We probably just need to move on until Sang gives us something to talk about.
I think you're kind of being a little loose with the "14/16 games" thing. Every team wants its QB to start 16/16 every year, and while some teams are okay with a guy missing a game or two, most of them would never, ever draft a player thinking that.
This makes me think you have never watched him play(even though I know that you have, so you should know better). He's definitely more of a passer than a runner. If he makes it it will be as a normal qb. He doesn't fit that stereotype.
I didnt say he is more of a runner than a passer. I said he is not the prototypical pocket passer type. That is not an insult or a knock on him. There are many starting QBs let alone backups who are not prototypical pocket passers. My point was even if he fails trying to be a "normal qb" (your words), he will find a home because he has the element of mobility.
I mean, he's mobile enough, but he's not the stereotype black qb type of mobile. he's big and he can run for his size, but he's not going to be scrambling around making plays in the NFL. If he succeeds at all it will be as a passer.
I didnt say he is more of a runner than a passer. I said he is not the prototypical pocket passer type. That is not an insult or a knock on him. There are many starting QBs let alone backups who are not prototypical pocket passers. My point was even if he fails trying to be a "normal qb" (your words), he will find a home because he has the element of mobility.
I mean, he's mobile enough, but he's not the stereotype black qb type of mobile. he's big and he can run for his size, but he's not going to be scrambling around making plays in the NFL. If he succeeds at all it will be as a passer.
And for his next act, Sang will be telling people that the NFL isn't ready for an openly gay player because the word "f****t" is used often in locker rooms.
Post by muppetstakethefarm on Feb 10, 2014 13:11:08 GMT -5
Maybe I should expand that for Sang so he understands this better... Regardless of what type of passer Boyd or any QB is or isnt, if you are playing a team with a mobile QB that week, you will take the QB on your roster who can best resemble that style of play and use him in practice against your own defense to hope to emulate what the other team does. This is solely an effort to best prepare your defense for the looks they will see and says nothing about what the person who fills that role really is. Some carry a practice squad kid solely for this purpose. Some carry a backup who could also fit this role in addition to being a possible viable option at QB in your "normal" style of play.
I didnt say he is more of a runner than a passer. I said he is not the prototypical pocket passer type. That is not an insult or a knock on him. There are many starting QBs let alone backups who are not prototypical pocket passers. My point was even if he fails trying to be a "normal qb" (your words), he will find a home because he has the element of mobility.
I mean, he's mobile enough, but he's not the stereotype black qb type of mobile. He's big and he can run for his size, but he's not going to be scrambling around making plays in the NFL. If he succeeds at all it will be as a passer.