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You have a ridiculously glorified vision of Jordan.
The guy was a tremendous player and competitor, to the point he berated teammates openly in team huddles during games and got into fist-fights with teammates in practice. He wasn't the type of person to coddle young players and show them the ropes, he was of a mindset where you either got on with the plan or you got the f*ck off the train. The Bulls traded for Pippen because he was a great player already and with Horace Grant they rebuilt their team around those three and BJ Armstrong. That was a young core, and Jordan was only 3 seasons in when Pippen was added. They grew together and that's what made the team so great as a whole. Obviously Jordan being great was the biggest part of that, but the chemistry that team got playing together for a few years, all growing and getting better together, lead to the championships. You are taking away the merits of everything Pippen accomplished by saying it was all a byproduct of being put on a team with Jordan.
Six years is a long time to hone ones skills. If he hadn't gone to Chicago he was going to Seattle, a team that also grew into one of the better teams of the 90s. Pippen was a great college player his senior year and after spending a year on the bench became a very good NBA player. What made him truly special (defense and how he could do anything on the basketball court) were not things learned from Jordan. He could already rebound (he was a 6'8" swingman with hops and he didn't shy away from contact), he could already pass (he entered college as a 6'1" walk-on PG), he could already play defense and he could score (23 ppg in his senior year). Pippen made Jordan better, not to the degree Jordan elevated Pippen's game, but you don't think Jordan's life was made easier with a top-25 player sitting on the wing waiting to nail a 3 or slash to the rim and take a no-look pass for a dunk? Of course it was. How many times did Jordan leak out and have a spot-up three because Pippen was working on the block against a smaller defender?
That is a two-way street that you're only looking at from one angle.
And, yes, LeBron, Wade and Bosh discussed playing together at the Beijing Olympics and followed through because they were friends. That led to Melo (who was aware of the plan) to joke at his wedding that he was going to play with CP3 in NYC to start his own Big 3. You can pretend LeBron's friendship had nothing to do with it, but that'd be a lie. It helped that his two friends were Olympian NBAers, but if he didn't see this coming why would he build an escape clause into his contract for 2014? After next year he has two player options, so if he wants to split and get a new max deal, he can. By then Wade will be 32 with another season's worth of games, and Bosh might not even be on the team. He wanted to play with his buddies for a limited window and bolt, and that'll be realized soon.
You've just made my points for me. The point is that Jordan could have gotten that help from multiple different players (who could have also been as great as Pippen if they were in his shoes) but Pippen could have only received that level of help and mentoring from one person. Mike. I'm not saying Pippen would have been garbage, I'm saying he reached the level he did because of MJ. Could that have happened with another team? Possibly. But would he have gotten as great? Who knows, but to me it's doubtful that he would have been as great. I'm speaking of levels of greatness, I'm not saying he's trash without Jordan. And it's pretty well known he mentored Scottie, and played a lot of one on one with him. Just because he didnt "coddle" young players doesn't mean he wasn't Scottie's mentor, he was. Don't forget that Mr. Pippen refused to come off the bench when Phil gave Steve the final shot. So he obviously learned something from Jordan and yea they talked about playing together while on the Olympic team, don't you have to be pretty damn good to make that team? Lebron has a lot of friends in the NBA, why do you think he chose friends that were Olympic teammates?
Jesus, just stop. Steve? Who is Steve? Scottie was passed over so Toni Kukoc could have the shot, since he was a better 3-point shooter (and Jackson looked the genius since the play worked).
Not a single thing you've said disproves my comments. You write entire rants of opinion-based nonsense and act like I'm a fool for not agreeing. I already proved Scottie entered the NBA as a do-it-all Swiss army knife-type of player, so no matter how much you think those skills were a product of Jordan mentoring him, they were already there. Scottie improved as he aged, as all great pro's do. This would have happened with or without Jordan.
For the record, I'm a Knicks fan, I don't even like the Bulls or Scottie, but you're just so wrong with these factless opinions I had to say something.
I don't know how I proved any point for you, as the only other NBAers I suggested are also top-30 players of all time. Name some of these other players who could have also been as good as Pippin, I'm dying to know this extensive list you've gone ahead and researched in order to be the authority on Pippen's career development.
In 92 do you think Jordan ever said, hey Barkley and Ewing, lets team up and try and bang out a bunch of tittles. Or Magic and Malone, or Stockton. I don't know if he did but I doubt it.
Sorry I miss spoke, I was referring to Kerr and did mean Toni. We just disagree. But since your opinions are proven facts and mine are just opinions, I don't see a point in this at all. If you feel like a fool, or that I'm calling you one, that's on you and your state of mind or interpretations of my posts. I've stated my opinion on how mike made him better in a way no one else could have and the way I read your "two way street" post you seemed to agree. It's not an even two way street was my point. Authority on Pippens career? For having an opinion? Wow. Sounds like someone's panties are in a bunch. As for the list, you've already pointed out Barkley, Stockton, and McHale. I won't point out anymore though because it seems my opinions are angering the authority on NBA history (you). I'll let it rest and agree to disagree before you blow a gasket.
Just curious how the fact that MJ was a guard and not a post player banging it out on the low block every possession got turned into "MJ is soft and never went in the paint."
C'mon, man, you're better than that.
Probably because that wasn't implied in your initial response, at all. Someone made a comment about Jordan hailing from a much more physical era of basketball, which he does. And your reply was that the physical play didn't affect Jordan because he didn't play inside. You didn't make a distinction that you believed it didn't have any ramifications on him because he wasn't a post player.
Either way, I'm not trying to say you think MJ is soft because, well, you're better than that, man. All I'm saying is that your line of thinking was incredibly flawed when you know the man had to overcome one of the most prolific physical teams of all time in the Bad Boy Pistons, in order to win a series in the Finals. MJ did indeed play in a more physical era, that did indeed affect him (whether he played "inside" or not), and his legacy is all the more strengthened because he played at that time and because he didn't allow the dirty antics and physical play to get the better of him. He rose to the occasion, swept the Pistons in 4 games, and then ripped the throne of basketball supremacy from Magic.
Maybe, instead of trying to use your awesome little quips like, "Oh you guys can't read," or "C'mon man," you could respond to my replies with an actual response that clarifies your earlier statement. Then we could actually have a stimulating conversation instead of me feeling the need to show you just how good Jordan was physically "inside."
My original comment was that it didn't affect Jordan "as much." Not that it didn't affect him, period. You've spent the past 2 days obsessing about the post, I would have thought you could tell the difference between the two statements. I suppose I assumed that anyone posting or reading in the NBA thread would know Jordan wasn't a soft player and took it inside regularly, but as a guard, didn't, technically, "play inside." For that, I apologize.
You want an actual response to your replies? A real conversation? Could've fooled me, considering your only input is posting Youtube videos instead of actually contributing words to the discussion.
Sorry I miss spoke, I was referring to Kerr and did mean Toni. We just disagree. But since your opinions are proven facts and mine are just opinions, I don't see a point in this at all. If you feel like a fool, or that I'm calling you one, that's on you and your state of mind or interpretations of my posts. I've stated my opinion on how mike made him better in a way no one else could have and the way I read your "two way street" post you seemed to agree. It's not an even two way street was my point. Authority on Pippens career? For having an opinion? Wow. Sounds like someone's panties are in a bunch. As for the list, you've already pointed out Barkley, Stockton, and McHale. I won't point out anymore though because it seems my opinions are angering the authority on NBA history (you). I'll let it rest and agree to disagree before you blow a gasket.
Saying "you're right, I don't know what I'm talking about" would've been less wordy.
You can't name any players that would easily replace Pippen because such players don't exist in large numbers.
Yea that's what I was trying to say......and no I'm terribly incapable of naming players that he could have won as many rings with. (Since your so bad at reading sarcasm, I'll point out that this is a sarcastic post) you can carry on knowing it all now.
Considering your only input is posting Youtube videos instead of actually contributing words to the discussion.
Or physical evidence that proves my point that MJ was probably one of the most physically dominating players of his generation. I get it, you were trying to make a point about him not being a post player. Maybe, in the future, you should iterate that point instead of making a crack about my reading comprehension level. I suppose I should have just done the same thing about your inability to clearly articulate your point.
Yea that's what I was trying to say......and no I'm terribly incapable of naming players that he could have won as many rings with. (Since your so bad at reading sarcasm, I'll point out that this is a sarcastic post) you can carry on knowing it all now.
Dedicating this much time to acting like you're a misunderstood authority on early-to-mid 90's NBA players doesn't hold much water when you're still not naming players. It's not that hard, you clearly have internet access so go find some if it's such an easy task.
Considering your only input is posting Youtube videos instead of actually contributing words to the discussion.
Or physical evidence that proves my point that MJ was probably one of the most physically dominating players of his generation. I get it, you were trying to make a point about him not being a post player. Maybe, in the future, you should iterate that point instead of making a crack about my reading comprehension level. I suppose I should have just done the same thing about your inability to clearly articulate your point.
You just started posting videos. You're upset that I didn't use enough words to describe my statement, yet you didn't use a single word to try and make your point known.
Yea that's what I was trying to say......and no I'm terribly incapable of naming players that he could have won as many rings with. (Since your so bad at reading sarcasm, I'll point out that this is a sarcastic post) you can carry on knowing it all now.
Dedicating this much time to acting like you're a misunderstood authority on early-to-mid 90's NBA players doesn't hold much water when you're still not naming players. It's not that hard, you clearly have internet access so go find some if it's such an easy task.
Ok now I'm calling you foolish. I encourage you to stop reading this while you're "not low" as you put it. And come back when you're a little less stressed. Yes I have the Internet, and no I don't need to name the players you seek. As I've stated I'm done with this conversation, and if it makes you feel better to take that as "you've won" then please by all means do. However I'm really bowing out for a few reasons. One is because this discussion will clearly take up more time than I'm willing to put into it. Another is because you seem set on escalating it past a mere discussion. I bid you a good day sir.
Or physical evidence that proves my point that MJ was probably one of the most physically dominating players of his generation. I get it, you were trying to make a point about him not being a post player. Maybe, in the future, you should iterate that point instead of making a crack about my reading comprehension level. I suppose I should have just done the same thing about your inability to clearly articulate your point.
You just started posting videos. You're upset that I didn't use enough words to describe my statement, yet you didn't use a single word to try and make your point known.
I thought the point was rather obvious from the videos that Jordan's physicality transcended the position he played on the court. Sort of thought that was easy to grasp...you know, just like you thought your point was easy to understand. Either way, it still stands that saying that physical play didn't affect Jordan "as much" because he wasn't a post player still doesn't make sense to me when the man predominantly went up against these larger, stronger, more physical players and took more abuse than many of those same post players. It's not like you say oh Isaiah Thomas didn't experience the same type of physical play that was characterisitc of that era because he ran the point. Of course he still experienced that same level of physicality, as did all 1-2 players, because they didn't have the luxury of being 6'10" 240.
Okay you all win - no one ever backs down on the Internet, yada yada yada.
What we should be talking about is what a travesty it is that Seven Nation Army is used by the Miami Heat and is hummed by fans during the game. Seriously, shouldn't it be like "come on shake your body, baby, do the conga" or something? Does Jack have to get Meg's permission for the song usage or does he own all rights since he wrote it?
Okay you all win - no one ever backs down on the Internet, yada yada yada.
What we should be talking about is what a travesty it is that Seven Nation Army is used by the Miami Heat and is hummed by fans during the game. Seriously, shouldn't it be like "come on shake your body, baby, do the conga" or something? Does Jack have to get Meg's permission for the song usage or does he own all rights since he wrote it?
The arena likely has a blanket performance license through ASCAP or the like.
Okay you all win - no one ever backs down on the Internet, yada yada yada.
What we should be talking about is what a travesty it is that Seven Nation Army is used by the Miami Heat and is hummed by fans during the game. Seriously, shouldn't it be like "come on shake your body, baby, do the conga" or something? Does Jack have to get Meg's permission for the song usage or does he own all rights since he wrote it?
Lmao, I agree Gloria Estefan would be much more fitting.
Seven Nation Army is one of those songs you hear at every single sporting event these days. It goes on everyone's list along with Gangam Style and The Star Spangled Banner.
Okay you all win - no one ever backs down on the Internet, yada yada yada.
What we should be talking about is what a travesty it is that Seven Nation Army is used by the Miami Heat and is hummed by fans during the game. Seriously, shouldn't it be like "come on shake your body, baby, do the conga" or something? Does Jack have to get Meg's permission for the song usage or does he own all rights since he wrote it?
The arena likely has a blanket performance license through ASCAP or the like.
And thankee-sai for realizing that my first question was rhetorical and the second one was legit.
Dedicating this much time to acting like you're a misunderstood authority on early-to-mid 90's NBA players doesn't hold much water when you're still not naming players. It's not that hard, you clearly have internet access so go find some if it's such an easy task.
Ok now I'm calling you foolish. I encourage you to stop reading this while you're "not low" as you put it. And come back when you're a little less stressed. Yes I have the Internet, and no I don't need to name the players you seek. As I've stated I'm done with this conversation, and if it makes you feel better to take that as "you've won" then please by all means do. However I'm really bowing out for a few reasons. One is because this discussion will clearly take up more time than I'm willing to put into it. Another is because you seem set on escalating it past a mere discussion. I bid you a good day sir.
I like how I'm a fool and yet you still can't provide any names.
Escalating what? I just think you don't know what you're talking about and shouldn't be the guy being all "hey, you don't know what you're talking about."
Ok now I'm calling you foolish. I encourage you to stop reading this while you're "not low" as you put it. And come back when you're a little less stressed. Yes I have the Internet, and no I don't need to name the players you seek. As I've stated I'm done with this conversation, and if it makes you feel better to take that as "you've won" then please by all means do. However I'm really bowing out for a few reasons. One is because this discussion will clearly take up more time than I'm willing to put into it. Another is because you seem set on escalating it past a mere discussion. I bid you a good day sir.
I like how I'm a fool and yet you still can't provide any names.
Escalating what? I just think you don't know what you're talking about and shouldn't be the guy being all "hey, you don't know what you're talking about."
Okay you all win - no one ever backs down on the Internet, yada yada yada.
Tom, you have this uncanny ability to make me feel like I let my father down whenever you say something like this. But, it's true. So, back to more important matters, how bout that shot that TP hit? That little french SOB has got some damn moxy.