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This country was founded on certain beliefs about the right of human beings. I keep reading about how the constitution is out of date and needs to be changed. It has been changed. We've added many amendments since its creation. So, I don't think America has a problem making changes when necessary. One of the rights we were founded on was that we as citizens have the right to take our own safety in our own hands with the same arms that may be used against us. As liberal as I am I don't think we should turn our safety over to the government completely. I think its important to hold on to that right. I'm not one of these crazies that are saying, ” well if these teachers were carrying guns this would have been avoided” Fact is though, that gun ownership is it an all time low in this country. If more people accepted the fact that gun ownership is a fundamental block of the building of this country, made themselves more familiar with these weapons, and taught responsible gun handling and ownership to their families, I don't think there is any doubt that these things would happen less often.
Just a question, do you support restrictions on hand guns and assault weapons? Not trying to pick a fight, just curious.
I'm for a more thorough assessment when trying to own firearms. A background check, a mental health assessment, a gun ownership and handling course, etc. I am not for a ban on guns though.
I want to reiterate: I am not a fan of guns, I am a fan of freedom. When I get home I will be able to put together a more solid post with links and diagrams as evidence.
We can agree that something has to be changed. We can also agree that we enjoy living in a free country.
In our country most states have different gun laws and the variance in percentage in per capita murders is not extreme enough to show that gun laws make much of a difference.
Different countries have different laws and you can quote articles all you want, the bottom line here is that guns are available in all of those countries. As they are here.
Horn, your stat in how many guns per 100 people owned in the us v England and Wales is an illustration, or a product of the actual problem, not the problem itself. It's a difference in attitude of the population as a whole that is different. It starts there. If you traded gun laws in America with Britain for a year, I would venture to say that the difference In Gun murders would be negligible. Because of the Attitude.
That's what needs to be fixed, and it will take generations of education to undo the damage that has Ben done.
Change the laws all you want, but it won't change the way people think.
Dude, I respect that you toned it down and aren't calling me a facking idiot so thanks for that. But like Flanzo said, and I've tried to say less eloquently, it's a two part issue 1) is access to guns and 2) is culture.
For issue 1, again, there is actual measurable correlation between restrictions on guns and reductions in homicides. It's not a perfect correlation to be sure, but it exists. The thing you said about state restrictions isn't true, states with gun controls are measurably safer. www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/01/the-geography-of-gun-deaths/69354/
For issue 2, what cultural changes can we make? What can we DO?
I respect the fact you seem to be sincere in not liking guns, but citing bogus facts doesn't do the discussion any good.
Horn, your stat in how many guns per 100 people owned in the us v England and Wales is an illustration, or a product of the actual problem, not the problem itself. It's a difference in attitude of the population as a whole that is different. It starts there. If you traded gun laws in America with Britain for a year, I would venture to say that the difference In Gun murders would be negligible. Because of the Attitude.
Ya if you changed the laws for a year not much would change. But what if you changed the laws for 50 years?
I want to reiterate: I am not a fan of guns, I am a fan of freedom. When I get home I will be able to put together a more solid post with links and diagrams as evidence.
The right to own anti-aircraft autmatic machine gunes? Has nothing to do with freedom.
In our country most states have different gun laws and the variance in percentage in per capita murders is not extreme enough to show that gun laws make much of a difference.
Internally that may be the case (I'm going to assume you're wrong since everything you've referenced without citation or actual figures has been hilariously off-base), but this is indisputably false when comparing America to other countries, thus making this a laughable statement, at best.
Different countries have different laws and you can quote articles all you want, the bottom line here is that guns are available in all of those countries. As they are here.
This is categorically untrue. If you went to Japan, or China, or Britain, Germany, Canada, and many, many others you would see that purchasing guns in those countries is absolutely a longer and more involved process than it is here in America. And I'm going to do you a favor and tell you that Switzerland and Israel, while having high gun-ownership rates and relatively low murder rates, are NOTHING like the United States in the way guns are purchased. You need an actual reason to own a gun in those countries. Like a "I do X business and am at a high risk for theft/kidnapping/murder."
They don't consider "well, I saved up and I want this high-powered killing machine so I can go shoot rocks in the woods" to be worthy reason to own a firearm.
Horn, your stat in how many guns per 100 people owned in the us v England and Wales is an illustration, or a product of the actual problem, not the problem itself. It's a difference in attitude of the population as a whole that is different. It starts there. If you traded gun laws in America with Britain for a year, I would venture to say that the difference In Gun murders would be negligible. Because of the Attitude.
You are over-simplifying everyone's comments here by speaking this way. Not Horn, nor myself nor anyone else is saying this is a singular issue, that if you take away the guns that murder would stop. And I strongly disagree that if you flipped gun laws in the US and the UK that the difference would be negligible. Imagine, for a second, if a soccer-style riot took place at an NFL game. both situations would have tens of thousands of people, some looking to flee, some looking to fight. But in one situation you have people with firearms locked in their cars, and the other you have guys with bats, clubs, maybe a couple of knives.
Which situation leads to more people getting killed? Do you not see the problem?
And this idea that the people of Europe are just a bunch of loving, kind, jovial people who never hurt each other is the most outrageously ridiculous statement you may have offered so far. Have you ever been to Europe? They have the exact issues that we have as a country. For f*ck's sake, the fans in multiple countries (Italy & Britain chief among them) throw BANANAS AT MINORITY PLAYERS AND START RACE RIOTS. Tottenham Hotspur (a team that has a large Jewish fan base) has anti-semetic hate-filled sludge slung at them constantly.
There are just as many hateful people in Europe as there are in America, as a % of total population (or at least thereabouts). To act like it's the attitude of America being the chief culprit is just outrageous. Drop an AR-15 into a soccer riot and tell me that no one gets shot.
Change the laws all you want, but it won't change the way people think.
So? I doubt ending slavery changed the way slave owners thought. I doubt giving women the right to vote changed the way their ignorant male counterparts thought. I doubt ending segregation and forcing schools to integrate changed the way many racists thought.
You don't enact laws based on whether or not the group you're pissing off will change their views.
If you think that some slight differences in gun laws equate to a gun murder rate of 35x more per capita, nothing I can say will fall on an open mind.
The per capita murder rate is exorbitantly higher here than anywhere else on the planet.
Some of you are talking like if we change the gun laws, it will work itself out, and it won't. This is a cultural issue.
And flanzo, I'm pretty sure this is the third time you have mentioned racism in a conversation about freedom/gun control. It's unrelated. You can do better than pulling in irrelevant things.
Lets talk about Hawaiian shirts or tack angles in transatlantic journeys. They are equally as relevant as race in this conversation.
If you think that some slight differences in gun laws equate to a gun murder rate of 35x more per capita, nothing I can say will fall on an open mind.
The per capita murder rate is exorbitantly higher here than anywhere else on the planet.
Some of you are talking like if we change the gun laws, it will work itself out, and it won't. This is a cultural issue.
And flanzo, I'm pretty sure this is the third time you have mentioned racism in a conversation about freedom/gun control. It's unrelated. You can do better than pulling in irrelevant things.
Lets talk about Hawaiian shirts or tack angles in transatlantic journeys. They are equally as relevant as race in this conversation.
I think everyone knows gun control won't lower our murder overnight, but there will be an improvement.
Legitimate question: Suppose that Congress introduced a law that outright barred ownership of assault rifles and made it much more difficult (but not impossible for those who qualify) to own and carry a handgun. Suppose this law we knew for absolute certain that this law would reduce the murder rate in America by half. Would you support it?
If you think that some slight differences in gun laws equate to a gun murder rate of 35x more per capita, nothing I can say will fall on an open mind.
The per capita murder rate is exorbitantly higher here than anywhere else on the planet.
Some of you are talking like if we change the gun laws, it will work itself out, and it won't. This is a cultural issue.
And flanzo, I'm pretty sure this is the third time you have mentioned racism in a conversation about freedom/gun control. It's unrelated. You can do better than pulling in irrelevant things.
Lets talk about Hawaiian shirts or tack angles in transatlantic journeys. They are equally as relevant as race in this conversation.
Okay, now you're just pissing me off. How clearly do I have to explain things to you so you don't misinterpret them?
I brought up slavery/race/women's right to vote as examples of other times in American history that the gov't made difficult decisions (at the time) that pissed off a big part of the country. I am not equating this to race and nothing in my comments suggested I am. Stop seeing what you want to see.
Now that we got that out of the way....this "35x higher per capita..." comment you keep repeating. You either do not comprehend how statistics work, or are just biased in this discussion and are presenting facts through a filter.
America, as bad as society is, is not even remotely close to the country with the highest violent homicide rate. Keep in mind that this data is always lagging a few years behind, but in 2009 the #'s were compiled using the most recent data for every country. The US was at a 5.22 rate in 2008. ***
This puts them below such crime powerhouses as: Madagascar, Mexico (EDIT: I realize Mexico has a ton of crime, not sure why I included this let's go with Cuba instead), Russia, Brazil and Argentina.
America does not have more violent homicides than the international community on average, they have more gun related homicides. Don't you think that a society that is below-average when it comes to violent homicide, but way, way, WAY above the international average regarding gun violence and gun-related homicide show that the US isn't any more evil than other countries, they just have a big issue with guns?
You are 100%, indisputably off base regarding this discussion. Perhaps you should do the research before spouting off like an expert.
I knew none of those figures before looking them up about 20 minutes ago. I assumed, as is usually the case, when something is perception it probably isn't reality. People perceive the US as a godless plain of death and destruction, but we're just another country with the exception of one huge problem that people refuse to acknowledge.
Go back and look at the past couple of posts we have had, and tell me I'm the one dragging "unnecessary" things into the discussion. If by "unnecessary" you mean "factually relevant information that disproves everything you've said," than sure, we can go with "unnecessary."
Tag, you're it!
***Edit: I realized I didn't give the full scope for this data. This is a metric showing murders per 100,000 people.
5/11/13: Sweetlife Festival
5/16/13: The Flaming Lips
5/20/13: Fitz and the Tantrums
6/7-6/9: Governors Ball
6/13-6/16: Bonnaroo
6/21-23: Firefly (???)
7/11-13 Camp Bisco
8/31-9/1: Made In America
9/27-29 Tomorrowworld (???)
Not taking a side one way or the other. Just offering something interesting a prof raised to us in class this morning. How do we get a "Not in my house" culture nationwide? Million dollar question.
If you think that some slight differences in gun laws equate to a gun murder rate of 35x more per capita, nothing I can say will fall on an open mind.
The per capita murder rate is exorbitantly higher here than anywhere else on the planet.
Some of you are talking like if we change the gun laws, it will work itself out, and it won't. This is a cultural issue.
And flanzo, I'm pretty sure this is the third time you have mentioned racism in a conversation about freedom/gun control. It's unrelated. You can do better than pulling in irrelevant things.
Lets talk about Hawaiian shirts or tack angles in transatlantic journeys. They are equally as relevant as race in this conversation.
I think everyone knows gun control won't lower our murder overnight, but there will be an improvement.
Legitimate question: Suppose that Congress introduced a law that outright barred ownership of assault rifles and made it much more difficult (but not impossible for those who qualify) to own and carry a handgun. Suppose this law we knew for absolute certain that this law would reduce the murder rate in America by half. Would you support it?
The only part of your question that bothers me is "much more difficult" but even with that, I would say YES. In a HEARTBEAT.
First of all, assault rifles should not be available to the general public as they are. It is unnecessary. However, you are only removing 1.7% of the guns if you take out assault rifles.
Again, assault rifles are not the problem. The problem is a cultural problem isolated here in America. Here is a table that shows the per capita gun murder rate in our country compared to other gun wielding countries:
Now, remember what I said with Chile. There are a lot of NO NO WORD!!! and territory related murders there, so comparatively speaking, they don't really match up to the rest of the countries on the chart.
Here is a chart that shows the number of guns per 100 people:
Now, before you just jump to the easiest conclusion possible, I would like for you to think here for a minute. Think about these 2 charts and what this means about America. Because there are countries on these charts that have gun laws close to ours.
Lets take a country like Canada that has very similar laws (actually they are more in favor of the gun owner there) when it comes to obtaining and carrying a gun.
Yet, the per capita gun death rate is 4.31 per 100,000 while ours hovers over 14 per 100,000.
They have pretty much the same laws. The same access to the same weapons. The same video games.
Now, conversely, if you look at Japan, they have an extremely low rate of gun murders, because if they even suspect you of having a gun they will raid your house and put you in prison if you are found to have a gun.
Lets look at another country: Finland.
Finland with 45 firearms per 100 population. The rate of homicide by firearm in Finland is 0.45 per 100,000 of population
This PROVES (not an opinion) that a culture with a lot of guns does not equal a lot of gun murders.
All of the school shootings, ALL, were psychopaths that slaughtered innocent people. This piece of shyt in Connecticut did not own a gun. He stole his mom's gun, killed her and then went on a shooting spree. She would not have had a problem getting a gun in almost any country where guns are legal to own. Gun laws would not have stopped this tragedy from happening. He was a psycho on meds and doing NO NO WORD!!! who had access to a gun that wasn't his.
There were 165,000 gun permits issued in Connecticut. One of them did this. CT has a pretty strict set of gun laws (one of the strictest) and this still happened.
This is a cultural problem, NOT a gun problem.
How to fix it? I wish I knew. I really don't even know what the actual problem IS. It is easy to make gun laws a scapegoat, but that isn't the root of the problem. Adjusting gun laws will make people feel safer for a short period of time, but in the end, won't change anything because it isn't addressing the REAL ISSUE.
Now, we are incredibly off topic from my original point, so I would like to re-address it: I am arguing to protect a freedom that we enjoy in America. The second amendment not only protects our right to bear arms. The amendment protects the rights of the states to maintain their own militia, or ‘armed citizenry,’ independent of federal forces. This was established as a safeguard against oppression, either domestic or foreign.
If you think this is a peculiar idea of Americans, look at the list of which other countries besides America have citizens who intend to remain armed. Number three on the global list of civilian gun ownership is Switzerland, a country with an historical understanding of the importance of an armed citizenry. The Swiss have 46 firearms per 100 of population. Yet there the rate of homicide by firearm per 100,000 of population is just 0.77 percent.
If you think access to guns equals gun murders, you are straight up brain dead.
I have another question for you: Do any of you remember when Tipper Gore lead the charge to infringe on our first amendment rights? I remember having a tshirt that I got at a White ZOmbie concert that had a middle finger with a handcuff on it that said "Censor this Tipper".
It was the whole charge to have cd's and tapes labeled with the "Warning Explicit Lyrics" label. Still, some groups were vilified, so they came out with 2 different tapes, one dirty and one clean. Still, Tipper continued to try and censor music.
How many of you are open to giving up your first amendment right? Probably none of you. But you are quick to relinquish your second amendment right?
Look, I won't ever own a gun, and I think people who own a dozen of them are excessive about exercising that right - but it is their right.
So what kinds of changes in the gun laws would any of you like to see? Do you really think that eliminating 1.7% of the gun sales (assault rifles) where the buyer will just buy something else is really going to make a difference?
The VAST MAJORITY like by a HUGE margin of gun murders are handguns. And I am not willing to give the right to own one of those up. Even if I won't exercise that right.
Post by iamthehorn on Dec 17, 2012 14:36:03 GMT -5
Alright man, knock off the psudo-science. Your conclusions and understandings of statistics are plain wrong. I will take the conclusions of pier-reviewed academic papers which conclude that gun control prevents murder over "Surfbum eyeballs the numbers" any day.
If you think this is a peculiar idea of Americans, look at the list of which other countries besides America have citizens who intend to remain armed. Number three on the global list of civilian gun ownership is Switzerland, a country with an historical understanding of the importance of an armed citizenry. The Swiss have 46 firearms per 100 of population. Yet there the rate of homicide by firearm per 100,000 of population is just 0.77 percent.
Lets take a country like Canada that has very similar laws (actually they are more in favor of the gun owner there) when it comes to obtaining and carrying a gun.
Yet, the per capita gun death rate is 4.31 per 100,000 while ours hovers over 14 per 100,000.
They have pretty much the same laws. The same access to the same weapons. The same video games.
Alright man, knock off the psudo-science. Your conclusions and understandings of statistics are plain wrong. I will take the conclusions of pier-reviewed academic papers which conclude that gun control prevents murder over "Surfbum eyeballs the numbers" any day.
you ask for proof, I show you proof and you dismiss it because you don't like the truth?
If you think this is a peculiar idea of Americans, look at the list of which other countries besides America have citizens who intend to remain armed. Number three on the global list of civilian gun ownership is Switzerland, a country with an historical understanding of the importance of an armed citizenry. The Swiss have 46 firearms per 100 of population. Yet there the rate of homicide by firearm per 100,000 of population is just 0.77 percent. [/qoute]
If you think this is a peculiar idea of Americans, look at the list of which other countries besides America have citizens who intend to remain armed. Number three on the global list of civilian gun ownership is Switzerland, a country with an historical understanding of the importance of an armed citizenry. The Swiss have 46 firearms per 100 of population. Yet there the rate of homicide by firearm per 100,000 of population is just 0.77 percent. [/qoute]
Dude, did you even read this article????? This makes my point for me! Thank you for proving yourself wrong.
Working quick and grabbed the wrong link.
3. Lots of guns don’t necessarily mean lots of shootings, as you can see in Israel and Switzerland.*
As David Lamp writes at Cato, “In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel ‘have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States.’”
*Correction: The info is out-of-date, if not completely wrong. Israel and Switzerland have tightened their gun laws substantially, and now pursue an entirely different approach than the United States. More details here. I apologize for the error.
Dude, did you even read this article????? This makes my point for me! Thank you for proving yourself wrong.
Working quick and grabbed the wrong link.
3. Lots of guns don’t necessarily mean lots of shootings, as you can see in Israel and Switzerland.*
As David Lamp writes at Cato, “In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel ‘have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States.’”
*Correction: The info is out-of-date, if not completely wrong. Israel and Switzerland have tightened their gun laws substantially, and now pursue an entirely different approach than the United States. More details here. I apologize for the error.
Good grief, man. Just because the details aren't exactly as they are today, doesn't mean they weren't accurate a few years ago. Sure, they are tightening gun laws, but when that article was posted, it was all true.
the point being that access to guns does not equal gun murders
3. Lots of guns don’t necessarily mean lots of shootings, as you can see in Israel and Switzerland.*
As David Lamp writes at Cato, “In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel ‘have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States.’”
*Correction: The info is out-of-date, if not completely wrong. Israel and Switzerland have tightened their gun laws substantially, and now pursue an entirely different approach than the United States. More details here. I apologize for the error.
Good grief, man. Just because the details aren't exactly as they are today, doesn't mean they weren't accurate a few years ago. Sure, they are tightening gun laws, but when that article was posted, it was all true.
the point being that access to guns does not equal gun murders
YOU ARE SERIOUSLY MAKING MY POINT FOR ME HORN
No I'm not. Just because you don't understand what an 'imperfect correlation' is doesn't mean I agree with you.
Great, lets talk about Russia, Argentina and Brazil. In America we have roughly 9 times as many guns per 100 people as any of the 3 of those countries. Yet, their gun murder rate per 100,000 people is higher. Again proving that the number of guns, or access to them does not relate directly to gun murders.
You, also, are proving my point that more guns does not equal more gun murders.
Surfbumdj - Yes, you are correct that 46 people out of 100 in Switzerland have a fire arm. What you fail to recognize is that this doesnt show is the number of guns per person and the type of guns that are available to them. You really need to dig a little deeper on these issues if you want to have a valid debate on this subject....
Side note - You had mentioned that guns are just accessible to people in many countries including Canada (where I live). This is just not the case up here at all. I would bet that 95% of my friends and family have never even seen a real firearm, unless its on a police officers belt. I wouldnt even know where to go to find a rifle if I wanted to use it for the purpose of hunting.
Surfbumdj - Yes, you are correct that 46 people out of 100 in Switzerland have a fire arm. What you fail to recognize is that this doesnt show is the number of guns per person and the type of guns that are available to them. You really need to dig a little deeper on these issues if you want to have a valid debate on this subject....
The ol' assault rifle and war weapon argument, eh?
are you really going to argue that because we sell an astounding 1.7% of our weapons as assault rifles, that means that our per capita gun murder rate should be 8-10 times higher? C'mon.
The VAST MAJORITY like by a HUGE margin of gun murders are handguns. And I am not willing to give the right to own one of those up. Even if I won't exercise that right.
Of all the stuff you've written, this is by far the most meaningful. THIS is the problem with our culture, that we refuse to give up our "rights" to handguns, even in the face of clear evidence that doing so would save lives.
Good grief, man. Just because the details aren't exactly as they are today, doesn't mean they weren't accurate a few years ago. Sure, they are tightening gun laws, but when that article was posted, it was all true.
the point being that access to guns does not equal gun murders
YOU ARE SERIOUSLY MAKING MY POINT FOR ME HORN
No I'm not. Just because you don't understand what an 'imperfect correlation' is doesn't mean I agree with you.
"Imperfect Correlation"??? There is NO correlation. As proved by yourself and Flanzo with your pointing out countries that have un relatable statistics to America.
Less guns, higher per capita gun murder rate in Brazil, Argentina and Russia. Half as many guns in Finland and Switzerland should equate to half as many murders per capita, right? Wrong. 7 X fewer.
Either it relates directly to the number of murders, or it doesn't and you are both proving that it doesn't.
So, the idea that gun control will clear the problem up is FALSE.
Getting a little heated in here. Take a look at this cute kitty. Kitty does not care about guns. Kitty just wants food and love. (and to be at the top of the page)
