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The idea of church in a modern society where science exists is weird. Going to traditional, Southern Baptist weddings (like the one I went to Saturday) is weird. Fairly rational people holding strong to centuries old beliefs and taking one book far too literally is weird. That goes for any religion. For someone to whole-heartedly agree with teachings of their book and think someone else's book which is equally as hard to swallow is completely wrong and ridiculous is weird. Example: I have Christian friends who never bat an eye at the stories of the Old Testament, yet think Scientologists are absolutely insane. They belly laugh at the idea of aliens and say things like "those Scientology idiots don't realize that L Ron just made all that stuff up. Its just a science fiction book that people are taking as truth!" Then they read their Bible which was written by humans and take stories of angels and demons and burning bushes and living inside of whales and great floods and killing of first borns and contradictions of God being angry and killing everyone except Noahs family and innocent Egyptian babies and then also saying God is love and that he came down as a human that was also his son and he was the biggest socialist in the history of the world. Its just TOO WEIRD
I know I'm picking on Christians mostly in this post, but that is, according to Republican Conservatives, what our nation was founded from (what a crock) and what many of my family subscribes to. It scares me greatly that half of the country has skewed Jesus' teachings so much and also want MY COUNTRY, the land of the FREE, to be ruled by Christian law. They can keep their religion to themselves. Church is weird
I'd just like to say that, the more I've grown in my faith over the years and come to a much stronger experience of God, the less this type of talk bothers me. There was a time when it would feel like a threat (perhaps, in some way, it's supposed to be; you do admit to picking on Christians, after all), and I would be determined to go head-to-head, but it was more for my sake—because I felt threatened—than for the opposition's. It was an attempt to grab at some kind of security, but security has only come through sustained spiritual growth.
Same goes for even mentioning my faith. Back when I first joined the board I rarely had the courage to even cop to being a Christian, as it can be a taboo in a place like this (although I want to acknowledge some amazingly loving people on this board!). Now... well, to put it as simply as possible, God is just too big and too real for me to be denying Him.
It makes me sad to hear my faith disparaged and misrepresented, but that doesn't displace the love and empathy I feel for anyone who is earnestly struggling to discover some kind of truth. Just as God is too big and too real, His love that permeates the world is too big and too real. We're all on the long journey, so there's no need for dead weights like anger and judgment.
I love you, Inforoo. I love you, jakicker. Have a karma.
The idea of church in a modern society where science exists is weird. Going to traditional, Southern Baptist weddings (like the one I went to Saturday) is weird. Fairly rational people holding strong to centuries old beliefs and taking one book far too literally is weird. That goes for any religion. For someone to whole-heartedly agree with teachings of their book and think someone else's book which is equally as hard to swallow is completely wrong and ridiculous is weird. Example: I have Christian friends who never bat an eye at the stories of the Old Testament, yet think Scientologists are absolutely insane. They belly laugh at the idea of aliens and say things like "those Scientology idiots don't realize that L Ron just made all that stuff up. Its just a science fiction book that people are taking as truth!" Then they read their Bible which was written by humans and take stories of angels and demons and burning bushes and living inside of whales and great floods and killing of first borns and contradictions of God being angry and killing everyone except Noahs family and innocent Egyptian babies and then also saying God is love and that he came down as a human that was also his son and he was the biggest socialist in the history of the world. Its just TOO WEIRD
I know I'm picking on Christians mostly in this post, but that is, according to Republican Conservatives, what our nation was founded from (what a crock) and what many of my family subscribes to. It scares me greatly that half of the country has skewed Jesus' teachings so much and also want MY COUNTRY, the land of the FREE, to be ruled by Christian law. They can keep their religion to themselves. Church is weird
I'd just like to say that, the more I've grown in my faith over the years and come to a much stronger experience of God, the less this type of talk bothers me. There was a time when it would feel like a threat (perhaps, in some way, it's supposed to be; you do admit to picking on Christians, after all), and I would be determined to go head-to-head, but it was more for my sake—because I felt threatened—than for the opposition's. It was an attempt to grab at some kind of security, but security has only come through sustained spiritual growth.
Same goes for even mentioning my faith. Back when I first joined the board I rarely had the courage to even cop to being a Christian, as it can be a taboo in a place like this (although I want to acknowledge some amazingly loving people on this board!). Now... well, to put it as simply as possible, God is just too big and too real for me to be denying Him.
It makes me sad to hear my faith disparaged and misrepresented, but that doesn't displace the love and empathy I feel for anyone who is earnestly struggling to discover some kind of truth. Just as God is too big and too real, His love that permeates the world is too big and too real. We're all on the long journey, so there's no need for dead weights like anger and judgment.
I love you, Inforoo. I love you, jakicker. Have a karma.
Steve you are one of the most genuinely great, and sincere people I know, and also the only clergy member I have ever gone to a Phish show with. I personally want to say I have no problem with organized religion, it is not for me, but I have no problem with it. I have a problem when organized religion tries to intrude upon what I consider to be the basic rights I believe we have as Americans. Past that I am pretty sure that by and large churches are full of good people who mean well and do good things.
Since this has been a thread of open discussion, may I address these two points of yours? Keep in mind that, as a priest, I am representing the Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition, which maintains the same theology and practices in an unbroken lineage dating back to the Apostles. For people only familiar with Protestantism, Evangelical Christianity, or Catholicism, it's very different (read: they all changed Christianity a lot from what it was when it was founded).
First, the Bible. It is divinely inspired, it is the Word of God, it is the most important and sacred writing we have as a community of believers. Is it all meant to be taken literally? Heck, no. Is it all factually accurate? How could it be, with blatant contradictions? But, there is a difference between facts and Truth. Allegories, for instance, aren't factually correct but get at a larger truth. So for us, to ask whether the Creation story in Genesis is correct or not isn't even the right question to ask. Evolution is entirely possible. Whether the universe was created in seven days or not is not the point; the deeper Truth relayed by the story is that God is God, that He loves us and created us in His image, that we separated ourselves from Him and by so doing allowed sin to enter into creation. The Bible is not meant to be read lightly, and it is also meant to be read extensively and with an open heart (all of which, together, is very hard to do!). It's not always meant to be read literally—after all, that often just wasn't the style of writing for the ancient Hebrews—, but it contains a Truth about the human condition and our relationship to God that simply cannot be found anywhere else.
Second, the theology of forgiveness. Here, Orthodox theology is very different from what you've proposed. To begin, you need to throw out any concept you may have about substitutionary atonement, or the need for mankind to pay off the "debt" of their sinfulness to a vengeful God. That's not what sin is about. As I said before, it's a fundamental separation from God. In our creation, we were united to Him in a mystical way (not that we were part of God, or gods ourselves, but rather that His love permeated His creation and united all to Him... that's the best way I can put it here). Sin severed that union, and creation was set on a course toward destruction, which is the fate of anything separated from its Creator. Then, it was not a matter of His forgiveness or His judgment that we were OK, because it was through our own free will that we had been separated from God. Man had to re-unite man to God, but man did not have the ability to do that. This was why the Son of God was incarnate as a man and lived on earth, because in the person of Jesus Christ the fullness of God and the fullness of man were re-united. By His nature, he bridged the gap of our nature and His nature. By His death on the cross, he conquered sin by being without it (yes, there's no "original sin", I'll get to that). By His resurrection, He conquered the final barrier to our union with God: death itself. Man is now able once again to be re-united with God, but the problem of sin still remains on an individual basis. That is, anyone can still freely choose to separate themselves from God through sin. But the separation is on the part of the person, not a wrathful judgment of God. God loves us unconditionally and to an incomprehensible degree. He remains the sovereign judge of all creation, and could choose to send us to hell if he wished, but we would rather see every one of us saved and re-united to Him. One of the early Church fathers said that, in Christ's conquering of death, God made a judgment on judgment itself. He chose, rather than to be just (for it would be entirely just to destroy us all) to have mercy on us and give us every opportunity to freely choose Him. One very, very important thing to remember is that sin is not so much an offense against God (like, we then owe Him something to make up for our sin), but that it is an illness of the soul. Sin is something for which we need continual healing, which is why the practice of one's Christian faith is a life-long, continual process: there is no "once saved, always saved". If we sin, we are putting ourselves out of God's grace, again not because some type of scales are set off, but because we have allowed a spiritual illness to take over rather than be purified through a deep, mystical experience of God. We shouldn't over-emphasize confession or forgiveness of particular sins: saying your sorry for doing something bad won't make a difference unless we are seeking a genuine internal change that will heal us of the spiritual illness related to the sin. It might be helpful to remember that the original word for sin, in Greek, is "amartia", which literally means "missing the mark". We are not where we should be, and need to correct ourselves for our own sake. With this kind of concept about sin, original sin no longer makes sense. We don't each inherit sin from the moment we are born, but there is in a sense a "mark" of sin on us as we are each born into a world permeated by sin. This speaks to the barriers of nature, sin and death that separated man from God, which I referred to earlier. The bottom line is that we have the opportunity to have a very real, very personal experience of God, but we work on it every day of our lives. "Accepting Jesus" isn't the end, but only the beginning of purifying ourselves, learning to love others as truly as God does, forgiveness, humility, piety, self-sacrifice, and on an on. It's a truly beautiful thing; I've seen it many times.
If anyone actually read all of that, I applaud you. If anyone wants to discuss this kind of thing further, feel free to PM me.
I've kept tabs on this thread after my tales of stupid. The above quoted from Steve is some of the most profound and well written stuff I've ever read.
I am not a Christian. Steve, what you just wrote is one of the most insanely well thought out things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling yet coherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered an irrational thought IMO. Everyone in this thread should now be wiser for having listened to it. I award you some karma, and obviously God has mercy on your soul.
Post by steveternal on Apr 26, 2012 8:41:19 GMT -5
^^^And these are not just my thoughts; these are the teachings, the central beliefs, of the Christian tradition stretching back to Apostolic times! My restatements really don't do service to the accumulated wisdom of the Church and all her wise theologians. There are books I could recommend which illuminate these ideas much more fully and clearly, if anyone is interested.
I think pbates said it best: while religion is not for me, I know it serves a greater purpose to many people. I just don't want it to be forced upon me. I get upset when laws are made that are completely based off of one interest groups beliefs, just like I'm sure people get upset when laws are made that go against their beliefs. Coming from the south, I see too often people using religion as a means of discriminating against gays and women. That is a generalization, I know, but sometimes you get caught up in it. I know many people, including family, who are great, charitable, caring people who are religious and many who are not. I also know many extremely hypocritical people who are not charitable, who discriminate, and who are self-centered that are religious or not religious. I think election years just bring out the worst in people.
Just dropped in to say that yes church is weird. I personally find most rituals and such in our society to be weird. When my wife and I were married we decided to forego a ceremony and get on down to the local court house just because we found the entire ritual to be silly. I was raised going to church and have been to several different churches and have never felt comfortable at any (but hey for the must part I'm uncomfortable in social situations aside from live music). I have family members who are devout christians and friends from other religions and respect them all. Personally I guess I'm agnostic with atheistic leanings. I feel like people who want to continue on in their rituals should. Like I said I respect it all it's just not for me. As long as you don't try to jam it down my throat, judge me because I'm not a believer, or try to pass laws that are based more in your religious beliefs than in the current reality we live in then hey do what ya want. I'm a big believer if you aren't hurting anyone with your actions then carry on friends. My 2 cents......have a good day all
Last Edit: Apr 26, 2012 9:53:30 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
* And as far as christians being the only folks who are open to discrimination I find that to be laughable to a degree. For example....(and I know this is only one) look at South Park. It is a show that is on the map as far as mainstream goes and any and all religions are targets for that show (atheism, islam, ect.) If you look at statistics and polls atheists are constantly the most hated and untrusted of all "religions". We live in a country were you pretty much have to be a christian to be elected to any major public office. Its also my personal belief that public officials know this and use it...I mean come on I don't think all our presidents have been christians. But you can bet if any are asked they will be the first to tell you that they are.
I have no problem with organized religion, it is not for me, but I have no problem with it. I have a problem when organized religion tries to intrude upon what I consider to be the basic rights I believe we have as Americans.
I don't really know what the man in the cartoon is doing (looks like he's pushing church into state), but my options for seperation of church and state memes/gifs was limited.
I don't really know what the man in the cartoon is doing (looks like he's pushing church into state), but my options for seperation of church and state memes/gifs was limited.
That my friend is a venn diagram.......my math nerd is showing
Post by Vector Viking on Apr 26, 2012 11:31:50 GMT -5
Steve hit a mark with "there is no 'once saved, always saved'". The main criticism that I have with MOST of modern christianity in general is that I rarely see this idea in practice. I realize that I have a biased opinion due to where I live and that I'm coming from an outsider's viewpoint, and that I'm often the target of hostility and ignorant arrogance from local christians if they find out what I practice. Most of what I observe is that people use the theology of forgiveness as a license to justify acting against the teachings of Jesus... i.e. clinging to theological dogma of divine birth and martyrdom/resurrection (the unprovable "faith" bit) and tossing out the pragmatic teachings of love, wisdom, and compassion (the provable "practice" bit).
I was brought up in a Catholic household (shocking, considering my family is Irish/Italian and from NYC) and went to a Jesuit university. I guess I have a unique perspective on religion, and by that I mean I consider myself spiritual, but not religious. I occasionally pray, to whom I have no clue, and I enjoy the Bible for the teachings on morality & forgiveness (and things along those lines), but I don't look at it as a book of rules the way some people do. I had some tragic stuff happen to me during my teen years, so I got angry and just assumed that there was no God, because "why would ______ happen if he existed?" I eventually matured, wounds healed, and I started going to church again with my father, who is a pretty religious guy (has missed something like 5 Sundays of church in his entire life, was an altar boy). I don't know why, exactly, but when I go to church I always leave with a sense of relief. Maybe it's the self-reflection I do while I'm there, maybe it's the teachings that the priest at my father's parish gives, or maybe it's just the praying where I get things off my chest.
I had a Jesuit professor who I still routinely speak with still, because he's just a great guy that can have a dialogue about essentially anything. One class he taught, he assigned us all books with religious themes to write a paper on. He knew I was a "scientist" (as he put it, meaning I am a very scientific/mathematical person who needs things proven in order to believe them), so he gave me a book written by a Jesuit priest who was also a scientist. Basically, according to his findings, when the big bang occurred if the amount of helium was even .0000(insert absurd amount of 0's here)00001% different, life on Earth wouldn't have been possible. So, his theory is that while there is scientific evidence to prove the big bang, it's almost inexplicable how these perfect conditions came to be in such a precise manner. His stance is that there is a God that guides the universe, but doesn't direct it.
I dunno, I feel like there very well could be something steering things, but I find it unlikely. I don't discount people for believing there is a God that influences them daily, because I "know" just as much as they do. It's not my place to tell people what to believe and what not to believe, which is ironic considering it tends to be religious fundamentalists who do this very act. I think religion ultimately gives people the one thing that motivates us all: hope. Who am I, or anyone else for that matter, to take that away from someone?
Let's just say I'm a spiritual scientist and leave it at that.
I was brought up in a Catholic household (shocking, considering my family is Irish/Italian and from NYC) and went to a Jesuit university. I guess I have a unique perspective on religion, and by that I mean I consider myself spiritual, but not religious. I occasionally pray, to whom I have no clue, and I enjoy the Bible for the teachings on morality & forgiveness (and things along those lines), but I don't look at it as a book of rules the way some people do. I had some tragic stuff happen to me during my teen years, so I got angry and just assumed that there was no God, because "why would ______ happen if he existed?" I eventually matured, wounds healed, and I started going to church again with my father, who is a pretty religious guy (has missed something like 5 Sundays of church in his entire life, was an altar boy). I don't know why, exactly, but when I go to church I always leave with a sense of relief. Maybe it's the self-reflection I do while I'm there, maybe it's the teachings that the priest at my father's parish gives, or maybe it's just the praying where I get things off my chest.
I had a Jesuit professor who I still routinely speak with still, because he's just a great guy that can have a dialogue about essentially anything. One class he taught, he assigned us all books with religious themes to write a paper on. He knew I was a "scientist" (as he put it, meaning I am a very scientific/mathematical person who needs things proven in order to believe them), so he gave me a book written by a Jesuit priest who was also a scientist. Basically, according to his findings, when the big bang occurred if the amount of helium was even .0000(insert absurd amount of 0's here)00001% different, life on Earth wouldn't have been possible. So, his theory is that while there is scientific evidence to prove the big bang, it's almost inexplicable how these perfect conditions came to be in such a precise manner. His stance is that there is a God that guides the universe, but doesn't direct it.
I dunno, I feel like there very well could be something steering things, but I find it unlikely. I don't discount people for believing there is a God that influences them daily, because I "know" just as much as they do. It's not my place to tell people what to believe and what not to believe, which is ironic considering it tends to be religious fundamentalists who do this very act. I think religion ultimately gives people the one thing that motivates us all: hope. Who am I, or anyone else for that matter, to take that away from someone?
Let's just say I'm a spiritual scientist and leave it at that.
I currently attend a Jesuit university and took a course titled Religion and Science in the West last year. The course didn't intend to prove or disprove the existence of god/s; it did however, assert that both entities can coexist. Religion is a subjective belief, whereas science documents what occurs in objective reality. The two do not need to interfere with one another. Problems occur when religions try to tell science how/why events occur, and when science attempts to tell the religious what to believe.
Yes, the natural order of the universe is awe-inspiring. It is impossible for humans to grasp at present. Some find religious solace in this, while others use this as motivation to drive forward scientific discoveries. I agree completely that I, as an agnostic, have no business telling someone that their belief in God is childish or naive, especially if it gives them hope in themselves, humanity, etc.
I don't intend to say this to the exclusion, or offense, of anyone on here who may not be as openly "religious" as steveternal. But if me showing up in the brick-and-mortar confines of a church puts me in touch with more people like him, then it's to my personal betterment that I would show up there occasionally. I've had opportunity to exchange PMs with him over the past few days, and he's such a kind and peaceful soul.
I know that once I show up there, not everyone is gonna be just like Steve. If fact, I'll probably come across at least a handful of generally insufferable types. I just feel that, on a percentage basis, I'm gonna meet more people like him than unlike him. As someone who's fundamentally flawed in the practice of my own faith, I pretty much need to maximize my odds of becoming influenced by better people than myself. I suppose that's pretty selfish on my part, but hopefully, it all goes to the good.
Again, I'm not suggesting that what I think/believe should be common thought, for all people. In reality, at least a couple of the gentlest, most charitable people I've met in my life have been professed agnostic. So there's no particular "magic formula" to be found within one specific doctrine, or building. But just as hospitals don't exist to tend to perfectly healthy people, churches are not the meeting point for flawless individuals. That's why it's best for me, if no one else, that I would show up there from time to time for a little "preventive medicine".
I guess, though, that the "dissenters" point is at least partially proven, too. I didn't meet Steve in church; I met him right here. So, yeah. This board can be a good thing as well.
I'd just like to say that, the more I've grown in my faith over the years and come to a much stronger experience of God, the less this type of talk bothers me. There was a time when it would feel like a threat (perhaps, in some way, it's supposed to be; you do admit to picking on Christians, after all), and I would be determined to go head-to-head, but it was more for my sake—because I felt threatened—than for the opposition's. It was an attempt to grab at some kind of security, but security has only come through sustained spiritual growth.
I think the reverse works for non-Christians as well. Back in the day, I got really pissed when Christians would start talking about their beliefs regardless of how well they expressed or backed up their beliefs. The older I have gotten and the more I have explored where my spirituality is, I have become much more comfortable with the opinions of others and tend to seek them out with the same vigor that I once avoided them. As stated previously on this page, the most important thing about someone's spirituality/religion is what they are doing with it rather than the details of what exactly they believe.
Certainty in religion or certainty in no religion is a dangerous thing imo. It allows a state of mind that is susceptible to hate and violence as well as creating an unnecessary divide amongst people with a lot in common otherwise. There is nothing good about religion that can't be explained in the golden rule.
-When I Hear My Name -Dead Leaves and the Dirty Ground -Blue Orchid -Passive Manipulation -Red Rain -Death Letter -My Doorbell -Hotel Yorba -Same Boy You've Always Known -Lovesick -Little Ghost -We're Going to Be Friends -The Hardest Button to Button -Black Math -The Nurse -I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
Encore: -Ball and Biscuit -Seven Nation Army -Screwdriver
Certainty in religion or certainty in no religion is a dangerous thing imo. It allows a state of mind that is susceptible to hate and violence as well as creating an unnecessary divide amongst people with a lot in common otherwise. There is nothing good about religion that can't be explained in the golden rule.
The best analogy I have ever heard is the one about teaching a dog algebra. If you get a really smart dog and work with it intensively for years it might one day kinda sorta a little understand the concept of 2+2 = 4, that dog will never comprehend algebra. Therefore when some old guy with a white beard tells me he knows the mind of god, and gods plan for me I automatically assume they are full of crap on all other fronts as well. If there is a omnipotent, all powerful God there is no way the mind of man can even begin to figure out what is really going on.
I didn't meet Steve in church; I met him right here. So, yeah. This board can be a good thing as well.
Nicely said, UncleKev. This board has indeed been a good thing, at least for me. Having spent practically my entire childhood in the confines of church (including Sunday school, Christian summer camps and parochial school) I was surprised to see more collective benevolence from Inforoo than from most self-professed Christian organizations.
This is not to say that most Christians aren't willing to give of their time, their money, and themselves to some extent when the need arises. But this board - the members and mods alike - have such passionate hearts about the things they hold dear - that they can't help but express that with compassionate good will towards others. At least that's been my experience.
The day we planted Matt's tree in October 2010? I saw genuine love in the moist eyes of everyone there. We wanted to be on the Farm that day because we loved Matt and we wanted to honor his legacy.
The time we collected funds to help someone dear to us who'd lost many tangible possessions? That was an outpouring of love.
The fact that QSAROO exists solely for the purpose of gifting joy into people's lives? That is a sure testimony of pure, generous, genuine love.
The beauty of this group is that many of us have developed deep bonds in real life. I know for a fact that if I faced a major disaster or emergency, I could call on a dozen or more people who would come to my aid. That's not something you find regularly in a pew on Sundays. Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? Not as much, for most folks.
As a group, we do many things to show support, encouragement, and genuine love for one another. We feed each other, physically and emotionally. We "minister" to each other's needs, whether it's fiscal or tangible. This is "church" to me: being good to others, showing kindness and mercy, helping others so they can return the favor and reciprocate to everyone else...that kind of action doesn't need a building or temple. It just needs people with open hearts. The world would be a better place if more organized churches realized (and practiced) that.
Post by dreamingtree on May 10, 2012 13:25:47 GMT -5
I only just saw this Hollie, but what you said is beautiful and so very right
I also know that if anything major happened in my life where I needed help of ANY kind, there are many people from this board that I could count on, and that gives me a feeling of family, and stability like I've never really had in my life before.
Welcome back Bonz, but I do not find it strange that your presence being requested in the Orgy thread and then you showing up, like it was the quacking Bonzai Bat Signal.