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Post by Fiddler's Green on Feb 27, 2013 10:53:34 GMT -5
Again specious. Provable facts vs usage preference. Okay buddy. You're in the north not the south and I live right between the North and the South and we'll all be happy. Moving on.
Post by iamthehorn on Feb 27, 2013 10:54:32 GMT -5
I just searched Steve Martin's entire twitter profile for use of the term "the North" or "the South" cause I figured it'd be the only way to convince Godzilla he's wrong.
This is a specious argument. Are you saying that precisely because all the grammar and style guides say to capitalize it, we should NOT capitalize it? In the absence of evidence to the contrary, why shouldn't one go with commonly accepted norms of writing?
No, I'm not saying it should not be capitalized just because guides say to capitalize it, but rather that it should not be capitalized just because that is the generally accepted practice. I guess you missed my rather glaring evidence to the contrary, so let's try this again. The rule is to capitalize a specific region. How can "the south" be considered a specific region given its ability to mean almost any geography:
If you need a holiday away from the bustle of Paris, you should rent a villa in the south.
If you visit China, you will encounter more diversity of dialects in the south.
The U.S. Census Bureau defines the area in question as the Southern United States, leading some in the south to wonder why the latter two-thirds of that classification is necessary.
You see, "the south" is only specific if you close your mind to the rest of the world (which again is why the Southern United States is the only geography that considers itself the south). On an aside regarding so-called rulebooks: many textbooks still used today assert that Columbus discovered the United States of America, that Pluto is a planet, and that a creature called the brontosaurus once existed. These inaccuracies persist in curricula today because they were all once as commonly accepted as your capitalization preference.
Isn't the problem with this argument that one word can mean more than one thing, so when using the word to refer to a specific region, as in "I am from the South," you would capitalize it, but when using it to refer generally to a geographical direction, as in, "go south," you would not capitalize it.
Isn't the problem with this argument that one word can mean more than one thing, so when using the word to refer to a specific region, as in "I am from the South," you would capitalize it, but when using it to refer generally to a geographical direction, as in, "go south," you would not capitalize it.
Outside the United States, "I am from the south" means something different than what you mean above. Thus the lack of specificity required in the rule being debated. In other words, if you go to another country and say "I am from the south," their interpretation will be different than you intended. For example, if you go to Poland and say "I am from the south," they will take you to mean Krakow and/or the mountainous region of the Carpathians.
Isn't the problem with this argument that one word can mean more than one thing, so when using the word to refer to a specific region, as in "I am from the South," you would capitalize it, but when using it to refer generally to a geographical direction, as in, "go south," you would not capitalize it.
Outside the United States, "I am from the south" means something different than what you mean above. Thus the lack of specificity required in the rule being debated. In other words, if you go to another country and say "I am from the south," their interpretation will be different than you intended. For example, if you go to Poland and say "I am from the south," they will take you to mean Krakow and/or the mountainous region of the Carpathians.
That's what I mean, though. It's all about context. If I am here in Nevada, and I say to someone, "I am from the South," I am referring to a specific region, and that is how my statement would be understood. The fact that the same words might mean something different in some other context doesn't change the fact that I am referring to a specific region.
This perfectly encapsulates the difference between "south" and "the South."
Actually, it encapsulates how nonspecific "the south" is even within the United States. Do you go by the official governmental classification and include Delaware, a state that is as far north geographically as Chicago? Or do you go the geographical route, drawing a line across the country's middle and thereby being forced to include a state as far west as Arizona (and what about poor little Hawaii down there?). A historical allegiance to the Confederacy might be an alternative except when it comes to states like Oklahoma which were not even states until the 20th century (Kentucky and West Virginia are also pretty iffy on that basis). Maybe you could turn to a self-identification method, just including the "I am from the south" folks, but then you lose in Texas who don't want to be any part of the United States, not to mention the residents of Florida, two-thirds of whom were born in another state (not to mention the six percent born in another country).
That's what I mean, though. It's all about context. If I am here in Nevada, and I say to someone, "I am from the South," I am referring to a specific region, and that is how my statement would be understood. The fact that the same words might mean something different in some other context doesn't change the fact that I am referring to a specific region.
By this definition, any geographic region would be capitalized so long as the listener understands the context. Only one mountain range nearby? "I am from the Mountains." Sufficient proximity to the sea? "I live on the Coast." etc. etc.
Post by blackdynamite on Feb 27, 2013 12:01:18 GMT -5
I'm at work right now (I work in a huge file warehouse so that lawyers can tell me what to do) losing my mind. A lawyer requested over 200 files from 75 different boxes all over the warehouse. It's a big task, but I'm not usually one to get to upset over anything that is in my job description. But one thing that will put me over the edge, is 75 boxes from the 70's and 80's that nobody had the common sense to label and organize. Just hundreds of papers, not in folders, just totally thrown into a box. Lawyers should be removed from the planet (unless there are any inforooers :p). They are unorganized, lazy, and caused the Holocaust. When a lawyer is born, every man on the planet stops masturbating. They just suddenly lose all interest in feeling any enjoyment.
This perfectly encapsulates the difference between "south" and "the South."
Actually, it encapsulates how nonspecific "the south" is even within the United States. Do you go by the official governmental classification and include Delaware, a state that is as far north geographically as Chicago? Or do you go the geographical route, drawing a line across the country's middle and thereby being forced to include a state as far west as Arizona (and what about poor little Hawaii down there?). A historical allegiance to the Confederacy might be an alternative except when it comes to states like Oklahoma which were not even states until the 20th century (Kentucky and West Virginia are also pretty iffy on that basis). Maybe you could turn to a self-identification method, just including the "I am from the south" folks, but then you lose in Texas who don't want to be any part of the United States, not to mention the residents of Florida, two-thirds of whom were born in another state (not to mention the six percent born in another country).
That's what I mean, though. It's all about context. If I am here in Nevada, and I say to someone, "I am from the South," I am referring to a specific region, and that is how my statement would be understood. The fact that the same words might mean something different in some other context doesn't change the fact that I am referring to a specific region.
By this definition, any geographic region would be capitalized so long as the listener understands the context. Only one mountain range nearby? "I am from the Mountains." Sufficient proximity to the sea? "I live on the Coast." etc. etc.
That's what I mean, though. It's all about context. If I am here in Nevada, and I say to someone, "I am from the South," I am referring to a specific region, and that is how my statement would be understood. The fact that the same words might mean something different in some other context doesn't change the fact that I am referring to a specific region.
By this definition, any geographic region would be capitalized so long as the listener understands the context. Only one mountain range nearby? "I am from the Mountains." Sufficient proximity to the sea? "I live on the Coast." etc. etc.
Capitalizing it when referring to a specific region was your criteria.
If I live in a place where there is only one mountain range nearby, and I say, I am from the mountains, that doesn't necessarily mean that I am from the one mountain range nearby. If there is a mountain range that is known as "the Mountains," though, yes, I think you would capitalize it when referring to it. The southern United States are known as "the South." When I say, "I am from the South," and I am clearly referring to the southern United States, I am referring to specific region, which, again, under your previous explanation, should be capitalized.
Lawyers should be removed from the planet (unless there are any inforooers :p). They are unorganized, lazy, and caused the Holocaust. When a lawyer is born, every man on the planet stops masterbating. They just suddenly lose all interest in feeling any enjoyment.
Capitalizing it when referring to a specific region was your criteria.
If I live in a place where there is only one mountain range nearby, and I say, I am from the mountains, that doesn't necessarily mean that I am from the one mountain range nearby. If there is a mountain range that is known as "the Mountains," though, yes, I think you would capitalize it when referring to it. The southern United States are known as "the South." When I say, "I am from the South," and I am clearly referring to the southern United States, I am referring to specific region, which, again, under your previous explanation, should be capitalized.
The specificity has to be in the wording itself, not in the intent. Almost every noun is specific in its intent, but capitalization comes into play when something specific is known just from its being written/spoken, without context.
I'm at work right now (I work in a huge file wearhouse so that lawyers can tell me what to do) losing my mind. A lawyer requested over 200 files from 75 different boxes all over the wearhouse. It's a big task, but I'm not usually one to get to upset over anything that is in my job description. But one thing that will put me over the edge, is 75 boxes from the 70's and 80's that nobody had the common sense to label and organize. Just hundreds of papers, not in folders, just totally thrown into a box. Lawyers should be removed from the planet (unless there are any inforooers :p). They are unorganized, lazy, and caused the Holocaust. When a lawyer is born, every man on the planet stops masturbating. They just suddenly lose all interest in feeling any enjoyment.
