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I'll tell you guys this, having seen Jay four times, Kanye three times, and Eminem three times
Jay-Z showed you last year how great a rap show can truly be.
Kanye is right there with him when it comes to performance.
but if you're simply a fan of quality live music, Eminem will leave you disappointed without question.
Again, be careful what you wish for. Whether you know it or not you'd be more satisfied with it being Kanye than you would if it were Eminem. Trust me.
i saw jay 3 times and Em once..........I say Em takes it. All around.
Angst ridden? I just wanted to know how sampling became the same as a "cover song".
Because that's basically what some forms of sampling are in fact. If Jay-Z comes out and raps different lyrics to an AC/DC song, he's, for all intents and purposes, covering AC/DC.
Patti Smith changed the lyrics to Gloria. It was still a cover of Gloria.
So if Kanye samples Chaka Khan or Daft Punk or Tears for Fears in a way that's basically just using their music and cutting out vocal elements while changing the tempo or pitch, I would argue he's just doing a Kanye cover of those songs because he isn't coming up with the musical part of what makes the song great. He's just rapping or singing over it.
Ummmm, no. It's not like Kanye just takes the Vocals out of the track and raps over the music. He samples the song, and manipulates it to make new sounds, beats, etc. Not a cover.
Because that's basically what some forms of sampling are in fact. If Jay-Z comes out and raps different lyrics to an AC/DC song, he's, for all intents and purposes, covering AC/DC.
If Jay-Z comes out and raps his own lyrics over a beat that was made with an AC/DC song then that is Jay-Z singing his own song. Not covering AC/DC. It doesn't matter if the beat has some lyrics from the original song.
"Through the Wire" is not a cover song. Kanye doesn't simply change a few lyrics. He wrote complete verses and created his own story. Just because the chorus has a few lines from the Chaka Khan song does not mean it's the same song.
Because that's basically what some forms of sampling are in fact. If Jay-Z comes out and raps different lyrics to an AC/DC song, he's, for all intents and purposes, covering AC/DC.
If Jay-Z comes out and raps his own lyrics over a beat that was made with an AC/DC song then that is Jay-Z singing his own song. Not covering AC/DC. It doesn't matter if the beat has some lyrics from the original song.
"Through the Wire" is not a cover song. Kanye doesn't simply change a few lyrics. He wrote complete verses and created his own story. Just because the chorus has a few lines from the Chaka Khan song does not mean it's the same song.
I can't believe I have to explain this.
What you're talking about is musical authorship. So if I write a book and set it to a Joanna Newsom song, but just take out the lyrics, suddenly what you're trying to say is that it's MY SONG?
Man...you should tell Kanye and Jay-Z that so they can stop paying the people who's music they are using to talk rhythmically over!
Hey Hova, you don't have to pay the Young brothers sh*t for using Back in Black in your show! It's your song because you've changed the lyrics!
Last Edit: Feb 9, 2011 13:22:31 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
Eminem solo would be a little disappointing because his live performance just isn't as strong as someone like Jay-Z.
that is just not true. I saw Jay-Z and Eminem @ the home and home tour. Eminem has a crazy energy level on stage always hype always has the crowd moving
If Jay-Z comes out and raps his own lyrics over a beat that was made with an AC/DC song then that is Jay-Z singing his own song. Not covering AC/DC. It doesn't matter if the beat has some lyrics from the original song.
"Through the Wire" is not a cover song. Kanye doesn't simply change a few lyrics. He wrote complete verses and created his own story. Just because the chorus has a few lines from the Chaka Khan song does not mean it's the same song.
I can't believe I have to explain this.
What you're talking about is musical authorship. So if I write a book and set it to a Joanna Newsom song, but just take out the lyrics, suddenly what you're trying to say is that it's MY SONG?
Man...you should tell Kanye and Jay-Z that so they can stop paying the people who's music they are using to talk rhythmically over!
Hey Hova, you don't have to pay the Young brothers sh*t for using Back in Black in your show! It's your song because your changed the lyrics!
they are payin them to sample their music, nobody in here has argued that. but its still a new song. a cover would be bascially redoing a song word for word(ex Johnny Cash covering NIN's Hurt). When you used the same music, but u completely change the lyrical content its sampling, not covering.
What you're talking about is musical authorship. So if I write a book and set it to a Joanna Newsom song, but just take out the lyrics, suddenly what you're trying to say is that it's MY SONG?
Man...you should tell Kanye and Jay-Z that so they can stop paying the people who's music they are using to talk rhythmically over!
Hey Hova, you don't have to pay the Young brothers sh*t for using Back in Black in your show! It's your song because your changed the lyrics!
they are payin them to sample their music, nobody in here has argued that. but its still a new song. a cover would be bascially redoing a song word for word(ex Johnny Cash covering NIN's Hurt). When you used the same music, but u completely change the lyrical content its sampling, not covering.
Here's where I disagree. You can't take an entire musical arrangement, barely change it and call that sampling. Sampling is taking an element of a song and incorporating it into your own composition, often with other samples and/or your own instrumentation. Just using the instrumentation of a song and changing the lyrics is covering a song which had been done way before hip/hop ever came along.
Hey Hova, you don't have to pay the Young brothers sh*t for using Back in Black in your show! It's your song because you've changed the lyrics!
Back in Black isn't Jay-Z's song. The song that Jay-Z sings while portions of Back In Black are mixed into the beat is Jay-Z's song.
I've seen Jay-Z rap to a band playing Back in Black. That is not Jay-Z coming up with a song to rap to. That is Jay-Z hearing a song, saying I think it would be cool to rap with that, having his band learn the song and then covering it while incorporating lyrics from a previous song he wrote to it.
When you first hear that music, you don't think "Oh man, that's such a great Jay-Z song". You think "Oh man, Jay-Z's band is covering AC/DC that's awesome". Which is why he pays AC/DC to COVER their music.
Last Edit: Feb 9, 2011 13:32:57 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
Back in Black isn't Jay-Z's song. The song that Jay-Z sings while portions of Back In Black are mixed into the beat is Jay-Z's song.
I've seen Jay-Z rap to a band playing Back in Black. That is not Jay-Z coming up with a song to rap to. That is Jay-Z hearing a song, saying I think it would be cool to rap with that, having his band learn the song and then covering it while incorporating lyrics from a previous song he wrote to it.
When you first hear that music, you don't think "Oh man, that's such a great Jay-Z song". You think "Oh man, Jay-Z's band is covering AC/DC that's awesome". Which is why he pays AC/DC to COVER their music.
Last Edit: Feb 9, 2011 13:42:04 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
Back in Black isn't Jay-Z's song. The song that Jay-Z sings while portions of Back In Black are mixed into the beat is Jay-Z's song.
I've seen Jay-Z rap to a band playing Back in Black. That is not Jay-Z coming up with a song to rap to. That is Jay-Z hearing a song, saying I think it would be cool to rap with that, having his band learn the song and then covering it while incorporating lyrics from a previous song he wrote to it.
When you first hear that music, you don't think "Oh man, that's such a great Jay-Z song". You think "Oh man, Jay-Z's band is covering AC/DC that's awesome". Which is why he pays AC/DC to COVER their music.
Nobody thinks Jay-Z is playing a cover song of AC/DC.
Jay-z will rhyme his song 99 Problems with samples of an AC/DC song in the background.
It's the same thing as the Kanye argument. These aren't cover songs.
Post by itrainmonkeys on Feb 9, 2011 13:43:25 GMT -5
You want to know what the description of this video says? It says "Jay-Z and Memphis Bleek performing a version of "99 Problems" with a beat inspired by AC/DC's "Back in Black" at the 2008 Pemberton Festival.
Funny....it doesn't say "Jay-Z and Memphis Bleek performing their cover version of Back in Black".
Oh check this out. It's from Glastonbury last year:
Notice how they call it "99 Problems" even though it has the Back in Black samples in it. The part before 99 problems however....IS a cover song. He covers Wonderwall.
I've seen Jay-Z rap to a band playing Back in Black. That is not Jay-Z coming up with a song to rap to. That is Jay-Z hearing a song, saying I think it would be cool to rap with that, having his band learn the song and then covering it while incorporating lyrics from a previous song he wrote to it.
When you first hear that music, you don't think "Oh man, that's such a great Jay-Z song". You think "Oh man, Jay-Z's band is covering AC/DC that's awesome". Which is why he pays AC/DC to COVER their music.
Nobody thinks Jay-Z is playing a cover song of AC/DC.
Jay-z will rhyme his song 99 Problems with samples of an AC/DC song in the background.
It's the same thing as the Kanye argument. These aren't cover songs.
So does AC/DC pay Jay-Z or is it the other way around?
Why do you think anyone gets paid? Who does Girl Talk pay after his shows? Do you think Furthur send a check to Dylan after every cover of his they do?
So Patti Smith changes the lyrics to Gloria and it's covering a song.
Led Zepplin completely changes When the Levee Breaks and it's covering a song.
But a rapper takes a song changes it and it's sampling.
Except they have to give the exact same royalties and songwriting credits the others do.
I guess I'm pointing to musical authorship superseding how other musicians interpret that music. I mean, even how Kanye entitled Through the Wire suggests even he knows what he's doing.
It's just people who are touchy about hip/hop's originality who seem to be confused about the issue.
To be honest, I sort of picked an argument I knew would derail the thread because I got tired of coming in here and reading about four options that could be headlining. ITM and Juggs are the easiest people to lure into long pointless arguments, and I know they love their Kanye.
Last Edit: Feb 9, 2011 13:49:13 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
i kinda get what you were saying. if green day starting playing an ac/dc song with lyrics to one of their songs someone would call it a cover. but when jay-z does it, it's called sampling. because sampling is what hip hop is built on.
Nuevodudezer keeps changing the argument in the middle.
First he was arguing that Kanye West's "Through the Wire" was a cover song when it's clearly not.
Now he's trying to argue that Jay-Z covers AC/DC and that someone is making money off it?
I actually didn't make the point about Through the Wire initially. I responded to someone who did and added that I thought Stronger was basically the same thing without the gimmick of rapping through a broken jaw.
And AC/DC gets paid everytime Jay-Z pulls out that version in concert.
that is just not true. I saw Jay-Z and Eminem @ the home and home tour. Eminem has a crazy energy level on stage always hype always has the crowd moving
AGREED
Yea Eminem was good but Jay-Z was ten times better.
It's really pointless to argue over though because music is highly subjective and while I and many others would think Jay-Z puts on the better performance- there are plenty that think Eminem or even Kanye puts on a better show. That said- I think an Eminem performance relies more on special guests/D12/ hypemen while Jay-Z only needs Memphis Bleek out there with him to blow people away. And Memphis is only out there for about half his set
To be honest, I sort of picked an argument I knew would derail the thread because I got tired of coming in here and reading about four options that could be headlining. ITM and Juggs are the easiest people to lure into long pointless arguments, and I know they love their Kanye.
i kinda get what you were saying. if green day starting playing an ac/dc song with lyrics to one of their songs someone would call it a cover. but when jay-z does it, it's called sampling. because sampling is what hip hop is built on.
which gets to my original point. what are we arguing about?