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Downhill. They don't have much in the minors to give them a boost and the rest of the division is getting exponentially better. I hope they don't trade what few prospects they have to over-spend on some soon-to-be over the hill star but that's what they always seem to do.
I'm not hopeful at the moment especially since our depth has gone to crap. I think this could have been a "rebuilding" year but without stripping the team and adding a couple solid young players to round out the lineup, like the Mets did.
I still have a feeling the Yankees are making the playoffs in 2013. They always find a way.
They had a good run for a dozen or so years even by Yankee standards so I can't complain. But they are now falling behind many teams in the other divisions and Toronto and Baltimore are getting to playoff contention instead of sucking. The Red Sox are improving but I'm not sure if they're there yet.
I still have a feeling the Yankees are making the playoffs in 2013. They always find a way.
I get the sense that this belief is based mostly on name recognition. The Yankees are OLD, they lack the youth infusion that has been a staple of their long-term success since that '96 team and they didn't get better really in any single area outside of the closer/set-up roles thanks to the return of Mo.
As a Mets fan I am an expert in piss poor offseasons and offseasons where a team is sitting on its hands while trying to convince you that they're making moves behind the scenes.
This has been a pretty terrible offseason for the Yanks. If they don't start making moves they could be heading towards a period of a few years before they sniff legitimate contention again.
I still have a feeling the Yankees are making the playoffs in 2013. They always find a way.
I get the sense that this belief is based mostly on name recognition. The Yankees are OLD, they lack the youth infusion that has been a staple of their long-term success since that '96 team and they didn't get better really in any single area outside of the closer/set-up roles thanks to the return of Mo.
As a Mets fan I am an expert in piss poor offseasons and offseasons where a team is sitting on its hands while trying to convince you that they're making moves behind the scenes.
This has been a pretty terrible offseason for the Yanks. If they don't start making moves they could be heading towards a period of a few years before they sniff legitimate contention again.
When a Yankees fan is jealous of the Mets and Blue Jays offseason you know something is wrong. Steinbrenner bros please escort yourself out because they aren't their father and have no authority over this squad. We need a single owner to come in and do work.
Hall of Fame voting stirred up quite the controversey in my household today. Thoughts? Predictions? Opinions on the steroid era voting? Kind of curious as to what people think, considering my dad and I had about an hour long conversation on it.
Hall of Fame voting stirred up quite the controversey in my household today. Thoughts? Predictions? Opinions on the steroid era voting? Kind of curious as to what people think, considering my dad and I had about an hour long conversation on it.
Hall of Fame voting stirred up quite the controversey in my household today. Thoughts? Predictions? Opinions on the steroid era voting? Kind of curious as to what people think, considering my dad and I had about an hour long conversation on it.
Good dark horse choice my friend. My personal fav for that category would have to be Edgar Martinez. If the AL insists on the DH it should be perfectly acceptable for one of the most productive to make it to the hall.
Could a Yankee fan explain to me why Bernie Williams isn't really in the Hall of Fame discussion today? Statistically he isn't to far off from Biggio other than the 3,000 hits plateau(or is Biggio JUST getting in for hitting this, which is a whole nother discussion). Add in 4 rings, multiple post season hitting records and an MVP. In he clumped in the steroids cloud? Mind you I'm a Sox fan, he just always seemed like a class act and I'm really puzzled as to why he isn't in the conversation.
Could a Yankee fan explain to me why Bernie Williams isn't really in the Hall of Fame discussion today? Statistically he isn't to far off from Biggio other than the 3,000 hits plateau(or is Biggio JUST getting in for hitting this, which is a whole nother discussion). Add in 4 rings, multiple post season hitting records and an MVP. In he clumped in the steroids cloud? Mind you I'm a Sox fan, he just always seemed like a class act and I'm really puzzled as to why he isn't in the conversation.
I feel like Bernie Williams is the very definition of the “It’s the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good” argument. Great player for a number of years, but nothing really close to transcendent or anything that made you think, “Wow, he’s one of the very best” for an extended period of time.
Could a Yankee fan explain to me why Bernie Williams isn't really in the Hall of Fame discussion today? Statistically he isn't to far off from Biggio other than the 3,000 hits plateau(or is Biggio JUST getting in for hitting this, which is a whole nother discussion). Add in 4 rings, multiple post season hitting records and an MVP. In he clumped in the steroids cloud? Mind you I'm a Sox fan, he just always seemed like a class act and I'm really puzzled as to why he isn't in the conversation.
I feel like Bernie Williams is the very definition of the “It’s the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good” argument. Great player for a number of years, but nothing really close to transcendent or anything that made you think, “Wow, he’s one of the very best” for an extended period of time.
This was my initial thought, but I would clump Biggio into that as well, maybe the 3,000 hits just makes it automatic. When mulling this though, I thought it was Williams 1st year of eligibility and not his 3rd. Perhaps Biggio's high vote total(I was also under the assumption he was in while writing my original post) was writers just wanting somebody out of the steroids cloud to vote for from this years crop.
Not that it needs to be said, but the voting process has got to change. Writers have 20 different interpretations of how to vote, and vote 100 different ways because of that.
As far as Biggio is concerned 3,000 hits has typically been a milestone that almost certainly guarantees your induction. Aside from that, he had 3,000 hits while playing everywhere. That kind of versatility gives him a distinguishing factor over guys like Bernie, etc. Realistically he's not a first ballot hall of famer, but with roid era it is what it is. How he didn't receive enough votes, and seeing how the percentages break down really shows how messed up the process is, though.
Let's say PED's didn't happen, this would have been the year that Bonds, Clemens, Raffi, and Sosa got in.
I wonder though if McGwire's vote total would have still been ahead of Raffi and Sosa if PED's weren't an issue. Also if PED's truly didn't happen (as in no one took them) Sosa would definitely not have had a HOF career, McGwire would be on the fence, Raffi may get in with just hit total. Bonds and Clemens are the only two I'd feel safe in saying would have definitely made it without PED's.
Post by Longtime and Frequent Poster on Jan 9, 2013 15:06:13 GMT -5
Barry Bonds could've dropped dead in 1996 and would be in the HOF. But instead, like hundreds upon hundreds (thousands?) of other baseball players he took PED's and went from someone who'd probably be a top 10-15 all time OFer to probably the best hitter of all time. Seriously, just look at this page.
Oh absolutely. That's my biggest grudge against Bonds. He had all the natural ability to be a HOFer, in the discussion as one of the greatest all around players to ever play, and then got greedy. And now it will take an unbelievable amount of luck to get him there.
As far as fans I think there's pros and cons to both them and the writers. If you open it up to fans you have to remember that it's open to anyone, and there are a lot of dumb fans out there. Personally, I think a HOF committee would be best. Comprise it of selected HOF players, managers, special inductees, etc. Change the process to fit that committee and stick with it.
Post by Longtime and Frequent Poster on Jan 9, 2013 16:44:16 GMT -5
For the record, tackitt, I don't think fans should vote on the HOF. I was just using hyperbole in that fans (who are by and large dumb) would be better voters than the writers (who are by and large dumb.)
Also, all Baseball Prospectus contributors voted. They had high enough percentage to induct seven members. BBWAA is just like the House Republicans amirite?!
Ok gron I see where you're coming from then. And basically you're correct, he HOF is becoming a bigger crap shoot than the government. If this is the kind of process it's going to be for the next however many years, writers need to start accepting the steroid era for what it is and vote those guys in. Quack the character clause
Post by Alberto Balsalm on Jan 9, 2013 17:34:53 GMT -5
The guy who's really getting hosed besides Biggio and Piazza IMO is Jeff Bagwell. People are saying that guys like Sosa and Palmeiro would be locks if it weren't for the PED use, but Bagwell never tested positive for PEDs, wasn't in the Mitchell Report AND he had better career numbers than both those guys and he still doesn't get in.
I'm not saying I agree with this line of thinking this is just me playing devil's advocate from a voters perspective. Yes Bagwell never tested positive or was found to be in the report, but the way that the roid era went, that doesn't neccessarily mean he never did. With the amount of "average" players that were taking roids according to reports it's hard to say that you can safely assume that anyone wasn't taking them at the time. MLB was far too lax for far too long on the topic, and it became a league wide trend. So while Bagwell may have dodged getting his name put out there, no one has any real way of knowing who did what, which is where Piazza takes some heat at times. I personally think the all or none is the way to go. There's no definitive way to go down the HOF list from that era and say with utter certainty if some guys didn't use. And since you can't do that, just assume everyone did and that everyone from that era deserves to be judged on the playingfield that was that era. Judge them against one another, and if they were HOF for that time, then vote them in and forget about it.
A couple of Hall of Fame legends spoke out in support of the voting shutout:
Al Kaline: "I'm kind of glad that nobody got in this year. I feel honored to be in the Hall of Fame. And I would've felt a little uneasy sitting up there on the stage, listening to some of these new guys talk about how great they were...What really gets me is seeing how some of these players associated with drugs have jumped over many of the greats in our game. Numbers mean a lot in baseball, maybe more so than in any other sport. And going back to Babe Ruth, and players like Harmon Killebrew and Frank Robinson and Willie Mays, seeing people jump over them with 600, 700 home runs, I don't like to see that."
Goose Gossage: "If they let these guys in ever -- at any point -- it's a big black eye for the Hall and for baseball. It's like telling our kids you can cheat, you can do whatever you want, and it's not going to matter...I think the steroids guys that are under suspicion got too many votes. I don't know why they're making this such a question and why there's so much debate. To me, they cheated. Are we going to reward these guys?...I don't know how great some of these players up for election would've been without drugs. But to me, it's cheating. Numbers are important, but so is integrity and character. Some of these guys might get in someday. But for a year or two, I'm glad they didn't...I don't know if baseball knows how to deal with this at all. Why don't they strip these guys of all these numbers? You've got to suffer the consequences. You get caught cheating on a test, you get expelled from school."